Suppose we have programmed a patch. Then we've bounced those notes. How should one go about getting authentic expression out of the sound? What are your ideas? I am not talking about modulating some "cheesy" synth parameters. I hear professional tracks and I don't really figure out how the hell the guy has managed to get such movement in the synth line. It is like I hear plugins being modulated but it is not really identifiable or when the synth changes expression somehow during playing melody it is subtle and I am sure it is not a fuc*ing resonance filter or blah blah blah.
For instance, when I program a synth patch the bass or low end is static most of the time and If I modulate it it won't be that great and If I modulate more than enough it gets into the "sounds like crap" zone. I am tired of "Sounds like crap, metallic, static and boring" synths :\ and of course I am tired of useless Groove3 tutorials
If you have any helpful recommendations I would be glad to hear it. If you are bored and don't know what to do please don't post in this topic

 

You and me both. It seems like there is no market for tutorials aimed at people with more than a couple years' worth of experience and knowledge. Theyre so bogged down with 1 + 1 = 2 and this is what the gain knob does it's not worth my time to wait for the one or two useful tidbits

As to your question... idk. Velocity and aftertouch mapping to things like envelopes, volume, filter cut/res. Synths that adjust glide time depending on distance between notes. A bunch of shit you already thought of, basically.

 

Well in fact there are some good tutorials, but they're about mixing in general. The guy opens up bunch of plugins and it is done. They don't say "How the fuc* they got that stem!". For example, there is a synth stem that sounds awesome and balanced(!)(Before even mixing it!) and the guy just boosts and cuts some frequencies and it is done. Most of mixing tutorials are Premixed carefully, lol ! I don't really no what's the use of "Big name" mixed "X" genre tutorial when the guy is not actually revealing anything except "His Big Name" crap.

 

You can assign expression (MIDI CC 11) to control anything from filter cutoff to amplitude. Or reverb dry/wet mix or high/low shelving cut, etc etc.

 

If you can’t make the synth sound the way you would like, you could record your voice describing what you want it to sound like and mix that in with the song.

 

Well putting static effect on Synth is not what is meant by Expression. If you claim it is, make 8 bar loop and share it here. Let us hear how you make an expression.

 

That's very helpful.

 

Guys try to be honest with yourself when you are replying to questions asked. Have you ever done the thing OP asks you correctly? If not, please don't make theory about what should be done. If you've already done it and gotten results then try to help others. Don't redirect topic from what it is to what it should not be.

 

I think this might be what you need? https://www.steinberg.net/en/company/technologies/vst_expression.html

 

well you just said "vst expression"... gave absolutely NO examples, and then said "but im not talking about modulating vst parameters".
what do you expect? why don't you start by sharing what YOU THINK is synth expression, so smarter people than me and you can start by dissecting and understand what you exactly mean
link a few tracks that you think have this quality

 

@MaXe What you might be hearing, could it be a drone created from the bounced notes that then is slightly modulated in pitch over and under the synth pitch where the drone is out of sync with what is modulated in the synth?

 

It's about having the right movement in the sound at the right time. Which of course is difficult. Often the simplest things have the greatest effect. Subtle and not so subtle pitch slides are a great place to start.

What I will say, is that sometimes the solution is not to tweak the 'bass' or whatever sound, but to use a completely different sound. Maybe just one note or phrase here an there. Don't try to automate it, just use a different sound.

 

This should be used more often here. Too many generic advices written out of boredom , too many wrong paths for the OP to walk on.

 

Reference track please!! What song are you hearing this from?

 

Well, then give us some clear examples of your understanding regarding "authentic expression out of the sound" and which synth parameters you consider cheesy.
I didn't get that in the first place, sorry.

 

You guys asking me WHAT iS your question like you haven't ever heard any electronic music !
Anyways, I think one good example of such track is the track below. Notice that this track has different parts, in breakdown, there are some real VST sampled. My question is concerned with electronic parts of this track so don't tell the same thing that I am already aware of.
If you have suggestions, please share a short example of actual implementation of your theory instead of saying for instance, "That's a simple phaser put on the chain" or something like that!
There you go,

 

I hope somebody replies with helpful comments instead of saying the same thing Groove3 videos are saying all the time

 

Last edited: Dec 13, 2018

First, stop acting like a dick.

In the example you posted, let's take the first few minutes of the song.

During the intro there's a synth 'key' part and synth 'bass' part playing quite simple patterns. Along them is a 'pad' sound or three going in and out.

The 'key' and 'bass' parts ARE a lowpass filter being opened. Probably automating volume and filter envelope settings too. The little break at around 0:58 is either some sort of time based effect applied to the key part or fucking with the envelopes again.

After that there may be a second layer / osc added to the bass sound. Now the filters are pretty open. Then there is some sort of overall filter effect and an additional little synth part playing a melody (which will return a later in the song) before the wobbly bass thing starts.

This time there are at least 2 different bass sounds, one of them heavily automated per note basis. I don't know if it's some sort of FM, wavetable or a comb filter thing. Those tend to give you sounds like that. There's also 2 or 3 other accent sounds playing now and then.

I don't hear anything too special going on in there. It's just skill, vision, experience and hard work fitting those things together and making them sound good and musical.

 

Very interesting topic, so thanks for bringing it up, MaXe! My impression is that besides modulating "cheesy" synth parameters there aren't any secret techniques or tools, but rather people using what's available in interesting ways. In this sense my best hope for this discussion is just a bunch of people stating what, how and why they do it. The more the better. In keeping with this, here are my thoughts on the topic:

0. Arrangement - I feel kinda stupid for bringing this up, but the longer I make music, the more I am convinced that a solid arrangement (and maybe timbre) is by far the most important thing in any song/track. If the sections don't flow and there's no sense of storytelling/drama, the whole thing will be shit. Expression doesn't make the sections flow, good writing does. Expression highlights that. I constantly try to ask myself whether I'm contributing to the story or whether I'm polishing a turd.

1. Expression as contrast - This is basically the mindset I try to get into when I think the rough arrangement is done. How can I make the "important" notes noticeably different from the "unimportant" ones? How can I treat "this" line to support "that" other line? How can I highlight that funky variation I introduce in bar x? These questions may be broad, but I feel that they help me come up with a general concept for contrast in the song/track. This often boils down to very simple and well-known formulas (e.g. important = loud > unimportant = less loud; OR important = up close > unimportant = wide), but it's helpful for me and sometimes you get ideas that are unusual. It also helps expose weaknesses in the arrangement.

2. Velocity - Another no-brainer, but for some reason this took me ages to grasp. Ever notice how a piano player can play the same chord four times in a row and every one of them will sound almost completely different from the others just by stressing different notes? That's what I want. I want a certain range of velocities to correspond with a certain timbre, which almost always means modulating a shit load of parameters by velocity. I feel the "trick" with this is to make every modulation almost meaningless by itself, but when they sum up the "magic" happens.

3. Distortion - I really love when the loudest notes in a line slightly distort while the rest stays "clean". Kinda like a Rhodes: Super mellow for most of the range, maximum overdrive in the top. Now, it doesn't need to be that extreme for synths IMO, but setting up a distortion that "triggers" lightly on the loudest notes sounds awesome to me.

4. Filter - Yet again something so obvious I'm almost ashamed, but you dissed it, so... I think the key take-away is that not everything needs to be a screaming filter swoosh. Modulating by velocity for +-10% of initial value throughout the range seems to be enough for me very often. Add a very slow LFO (<10hz) to that and things become much more lively.

5. Absence of expression as a quality - A good guitar player will be able to pull off tons of different expressive techniques and that's kinda why guitar is such a cool instrument. So many people interpreting its abilities in so many ways. But a velocity-sensitive 808? No thanks, I like my shit rigid and with bass all the time. This goes for synths to a much lesser extent (CS80 aftertouch anyone?), but in terms of aesthetic quality, I'd say they'll always be more "industrial" and "monotonous" in a way (which obviously isn't bad). So, rather than trying to make a synth what it's not, maybe use it for what it's good at with ease.

6. Mixing - Just saw you post that Deadmau5 track while I was typing this and honestly, most of the expression in this seems to be coming from a good arrangement, clever layering and purposeful/well done sound-design. In terms of instruments played expressively, there's almost nothing there. Maybe, after all, mixing/sound-design tutorials aren't the worst thing for you to immerse yourself in. If Groove3 is too basic, check out UBK's Museletter and his podcast.

 

If you already bounced to audio there are tons of tricks using FX to add movement and depth. I would probably do a lot of this stuff and vst automation before committing to audio but it's just personal taste.
I will give an example using ableton's built in fx only.
Autopan with pan width set to zero creates a rhythmic chop effect which can be time synced or lfo'd, draw in automation on this parameter. Experiment with amount control to blend with original.
Sidechain a gate, compressor or auto filter to any trigger {eg drum track} to add movement to your sound. automate.
Add harmonic richness with overdrive or saturation followed by chorus or reverb to add more depth and harmonics, overdrive again, add flanger, short delay, loads of eq blend to taste, automate, bounce again, repeat process or similar, bounce, blend...break the rules!
Then mix a little bit of this back into original sound for a bit of movement.
Beat repeat, subtle or brutal and blended as a send/return
Grain delay, many possibilities........
Frequency Shifter does vibrato/flanging, time synced pitch change.
Audio clips have loads of built in parameters as well that can be as subtle or crazy as u like.
I could go on for awhile yet and cover vsts such as Effectrix, or Sandman Pro or Delay automation...
You could apply these techniques with free stuff or a different DAW...Layer loads of tracks with the same sound on and try different FX on each, eq and blend to taste. No number of tutorials can beat messing with every parameter so that you know a bit more about everything you are using before even making a tune but Mr Bill's free Youtube tutorials are the place to learn many of these advanced sound mangling techniques and more.....