I don't do mixing, I'm a graphic designer, 25 years, music is a hobby and a sideline, for 30 years. But I know clients. He may not be lying. He may have stumbled into this situation before, and somebody just fixed his shit, gave him wayy more work than they bargained for, and then politely declined any more work from him. He hires people for mixing and mastering and expects production to be free.

Our work, be it studio work or design, is a mixture of creative work and technical work (in our field it's called "production work" while in yours the producer is the creative, funny that). We all do a bit of both.

Mixing is predictable, you can estimate time and the estimate will probably be correct. But producing calls for trying out all sorts of things, coming up with shit, melodies even.

This is a clusterfuck client. Those are only acceptable if they are willing to pay by the hour for however many hours it takes.

If the client wants both creative input and a modest, fixed price tag, that's not a red flag, that's a black flag. It's done, and if the client tries to reason with you after you tell him that you can't do production work on a mixing and mastering price tag, end the conversation and don't talk to them again. Lots of people that want to abuse you if you let them.
But, if you've got a day rate and they are fine with paying by the day until its over, take the job, learn the tricks needed to do the thing right, enjoy the money. Or take a part of the money and pay a pro to do the things you can't.

But it sounds like this guy isn't Björk, just an asshole that will suck you dry if you let them.

I concur with everyone else here. You should privately decide that you're giving the job back, and you don't owe an unreasonable person explanations they reject, since they're probably dishonest anyway. Be polite but firm, very firm, quiet, don't think explanations or excuses help, it's only food for the flame. Give the money back (if you got any).

And then:

For the next job, define exactly what you do (and don't do) and make sure that every client from now on agrees to that. When they pay for mixing and mastering, they know what you do when you mix and master, and that you expect that everything else will already be done when you get the tapes.

 

That said, in design I usually take the job if I think I'll get paid enough, and I will learn something.

Just make sure he knows that you're giving a huge discount because you're learning to do the thing, he has to commit to the discount price and accept what he gets for the money. Make him spell out "I may not be happy with this but I will pay for the work, since a lot of it will be done for free".

Maybe he can even critique it until you reach that end. Asshole clients can be good, like that. Just know what you're getting yourself into. If you're excited and curious, do it, but if you just want fair money for expectable work, reject the job. I, unfortunately, seem to love trouble.

 

I don't think I could have achieved something to his expectation.

I also hate to fight with clients. I'm hot blooded so that sort of adventure usually end up in tears.

With that said, my best time and money investment nowadays would be to find someone that can teach me impeccable vocal production.

I honestly suck at it.

The question is, who, where and how will I get that from ?

And I'm not talking about the usual soft rock band type of vocals. I'm talking about modern auto-tune and effect filled type of vocal production.

When I try, I always end up doing too much or not enough. I have a hard time developing my taste to the industry standard and that really is stopping me from getting a few contracts.

Since that thread, I received another request that I had to turn down unless he provided some pre-comp and processed vocal stems.

Seriously, It's on me now. I need to find THAT guy that will teach me.

 

How about outsourcing instead of declining? You don't necessarily have to pay a pro that will eat up your cut and then some. I have a guy who does beats for me. He's 21, well versed in urban styles, impeccable ear, and highly creative. It's like a joint venture. I split the money and I learn what he does. He learns mixing, production skills, and gets a second ear on what he does. I encourage him to mix his work and if he sticks to it, he'll be a great producer.

 

I'm 100% with you on that one.

The issue, in my specific case, usually come from vocal production. I can do latin urban music all day long. My issue is with a decent credible vocal production.
If I can find someone that can do something decent out of ''trash'' latin vocals, i'll pay him 3 times the fare so I can learn that craft.

I'm not even sure someone can teach me that. It seems to be a cultural taste that most westerners don't get. Even US trap and modern rnb have little to do with modern reggaeton vocal production.

EDIT: I'm not saying latin vocals are trash. I'm saying I don't know how to deal with modern vocal reggaeton, latin trap and chilltrapeton or whatever they call it.

 

Last edited: Aug 21, 2023

I would first ask what the actual problem is.
Is it your skill? If so, decline. Is it the deadline? Are there projects that are blocking your units and can't be moved? Is it possible to deliver by the deadline by raising the work hours? Is it worth it? If the deadline is the problem, decline. If it's doable for you with extra effort, raise your price.

 

In total honesty, the issue is definitely a mix of the deadline and my skill. Mercurysoto is right, I could just out source the part that is too involving for me. I actually don't feel comfortable raising my price in those situation so I guess I'll just have to learn how to properly produce modern vocals in the upcoming months.

Do you know of any good modern vocal production class I could take ?

 

Aye bruh that shit was trash

 

Look, sometimes clients just need a sense of "they're protected" so they describe things they don't understand.
Try to analyze their needs step by step (for example, what are the acceptable criteria for the final result and how they will check and evaluate your work).

 

Yeah, that never happened and want to make sure it'll never happen !

 

Last edited: Aug 22, 2023

If you take the job and after one week of work, you don't get a result that is anywhere near to what it was expected to be, you will have trouble getting or keeping your money. He will put up a fight, for sure. So if you know it can't be done, don't bother trying, because you will lose in the end, or you will have to put a lot more time into it, which he will not want to pay you for, which will mean that you lose again. Another thing to consider is: If he has songs made before, and they were worse and someone else made them into what he wanted, why wouldn't he go back to them, if they did a satisfying job. Probably he f'ed them over and they are not interested in dealing with him again.

 

In the end, of course, you have to trust your gut. And there is no shame in getting help. But what I meant by raising the price is this:
You didn't write it, but it sounds like the client wants you to wear four hats but only pay for two. Like, I'll buy the mix and master package, but I also want you to do the editing, tuning, and production. Second, you should be paid for overtime, just like any other job. If the amount of time you have to put into a project is unpredictable, charge by hour. I only sell myself short when I am entering a new market and acquisition is my priority, or when I am personally/emotionally invested in a project. Everything else is crazy. And I've had enough crazy clients for two lifes. It's not worth it.

 

This gets my eye:
https://studio.com/classes/tainy/la...code=a&utm_source=tainy&utm_medium=instructor

Tainy is an acclaimed producer with big credits under his belt. I've seen a couple of YouTube videos, and he explains stuff clearly.

From there, you might find a lot more around.

 

Yeah, I had my share of weirdos as well which is why I refuse. And I'll keep on refusing until I can deliver what's asked. If I was to outsource the vocal comping and production of it, that would eat a lot of my margin looking at the price around.

 

I took a quick look and he seems to be teaching his Modern urban Latin music workflow. That is a none issue for me. I'm comfy on that aspect. That's actually what I do best. My issue is specifically with modern vocal production (aka auto-tune work).

Thanks for the suggestion though. I appreciate.

 

the last thing you want is that people kind of like his track but it doesn't sound quite right and he blames the inconsistencies on the production testmyspeed omegle th belt rather than the source material.

 

Last edited: Aug 26, 2023

I totally agree with that statement. I'm not going to venture in uncharted water without mastering the art of it (modern vocal production) first. There's nothing that sound more dull than an unassumed and unconfident production and mix.

 

No its extra work. physical extra work. If someone comes to you with ready recordings, you have a set price. The extra work is on-site recording and tuning, working with the artist to get the auto-tuned sounds they have in their head.

That's a recording engineer, and a technician (specialist with autotune).

Often hardware is used, like the TC-Helion pedals that most of the Iconic auto-tune performances were recorded with.

I would probably start the conversation with someone who thinks that vocal comps happen by magic to these pedals.

Because the pedals are kind of an instrument. When the artist hears the outcome in real-time, they start learning how to control their voice to get the best out of the pedal.

If it's a low-budget production, it's by far the best option for the artist to get themselves a pedal like that.

They'll get much further than just recording without a sense for how the outcome will be. They will have a tangible outcome that they can themselves improve upon, or get help to tweak some things.

I think operating melodyne to move some melody around isn't beyond your skillset, as long as the artist knows what they want to change, and the changes aren't drastic.

But beyond that... I could probably do the work you describe, because I have a very weird skillset, based on mostly unprofessional experience.

Fixing shit recordings *isn't* professional work. Professionals don't want to bother with that. You want to produce something great, alongside other professionals.

You need clients who understand that, who don't expect you to make miracles without being paid for it.

So I could fix something for you if it's worth the miracle, if there's real gold behind it. But if I'm supposed to create the gold for you (you being not you but the dumbass artist), you'd better pay me well, because it'll take a minute.

But I'm working from a lot of assumptions here, I might be missing some bits.

Take what you want and leave the rest, as they say

 

Last edited: Aug 25, 2023

I was actually searching for more info on that matter yesterday and just found this thread now :

https://gearspace.com/board/rap-hip-hop-engineering-and-production/463259-wisin-y-yandel-vocals.html

Pretty specific in terms of vocal technique so you seem to be spot on in regards to the fact that this kid that hit me with shitty vocals was B.Shiting me.

Honestly, I was doubting myself for a moment but one thing for sure, I still need to sit, watch and listen to someone knowledgeable do his thing as it will greatly help me integrate the vocals in my future mixes.

That should not have happened at my age and in a genre that I know so well.

 

How similar it all is.
Wherever people are involved, there are conflicts. I'm 40 years self employed in different fields (programmer, software/hardware services, financial services)
I am as greedy as everyone else and would like to have any business for me alone. But that ends in clusterfuck situation on a regular basis as @Terrordisco said it so picturesq

Spoiler: But you'll make your own rules and apply or go nuts

1. normal customers who pay a good performance from good This should really be the normal case. Despite all advertising statements, I must always be honest with customers and tell them what I can do or can do with the help of partners. One unsatisfied customer never comes back and tells at least 5 other potential customers.

2. There are customers who have requirements that I can't meet (alone), so I make it clear from the start that I can't provide the service completely myself, but that I will work with appropriate partners and service providers so that smooth processing of the project is nevertheless guaranteed.

Clusterefuck-alarm V1
3. However, there are also customers whose demands are so unrealistic that practically no one can meet them. These customers will never be satisfied, you can do whatever you want. I do not want such business, even if it is always difficult to refuse.
In the best case, pass such customers on to an evil competitor and let them pay you a commission for it.

3. Customers who want maximum performance for a minimum price I have to convince these customers that my service is worth a decent price. The best way to do this is through references and even better through direct recommendations.
But I do not sell below price, because that also gets around (type 1 customers would get angry).

4. Clusterefuck-alarm V2
Customers who only want to tap my know how and didn't want to place an order with me in the first place. Unfortunately, this also happens from time to time. These customers tap services from the beginning, e.g. the planning of a project, which can make up a good part of the total service. You get a feeling for it when you meet such people. To limit the possible damage it is - if this is enforceable - to agree on payments on account.

No work without fair pay, prefer to turn down bad jobs and pass on really bad jobs to the competition.

 

Last edited: Aug 25, 2023