How can this song play all the 12 nots and still sounds good?

Discussion in 'Education' started by Kuuhaku, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. Kuuhaku

    Kuuhaku Member

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    Hello! I studied the basics of music theory, learned about major and minor and other scales etc, but I never really get how they change keys in their songs, when I just try to wrote a melody or anything with 3 notes in sequence, Its sounds really bad... So I am there today to ask you guys, how can this melody play all the notes?
    And how can the first part sound so good?? I really love that intro song.




     
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  3. Rorer

    Rorer Producer

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  4. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

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    First off, good is relative. You think a good melody has to stick to a certain scale? Well, this assumption is wrong, luckily. That's why this song sounds so interesting, because it does not stick to one scale.

    And btw, you can play every note in a Blues - at the right time.
     
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  5. garfinkle

    garfinkle Kapellmeister

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    Yech.

    Ugly.

    Check out how paul simon wrote Still Crazy After All these Years for a lesson in harmony and how to indulge "all 12 notes".

    ps - there are more...but lets leave that for now...
     
  6. 23322332

    23322332 Platinum Record

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    "when I just try to wrote a melody or anything with 3 notes in sequence, Its sounds really bad.."

    Come one, learn to play some simple melodies and analyze how they work. Start composing 4-5 note songs and progressively add more complexity in time - in 2 years you may write even chromatic music as long as you persist.
    And there are no real rules, never forget that and use your ears to judge whether it sounds good.

    Buy a real theory book, if you have problems with music theory.
     
  7. mr.personality

    mr.personality Ultrasonic

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    Yes. Would say that also depends upon what musical effect or genre you're aiming for. Styles that are known for 'shred' type playing like jazz and country/bluegrass, use chromaticism (all 12 notes).
    Contained within that is the technique of using a note one step above or below the note you're actually aiming for. However, in general, any notes outside a scale are timed to be played on the off/weak beats with the chord/scalar tones those non scale notes need to be resolved to, are on the strong beats.

    I liked that intro bit. Sounds to me more like film music, which afaic, every 'rule' can be, and is, thrown out the window.
    I play guitar and have keyboards to noodle on with my DAW, as most do. I find for some reason that almost everything sounds good on a piano/synth. Plop you hands down anywhere, and move anywhere, and it (dissonances) sound good for some reason, lol.
     
  8. Baxter

    Baxter Audiosexual

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    1) Because modulation.
    2) Because blue notes (chromatic note transitions).
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  9. Kuuhaku

    Kuuhaku Member

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    Whats the rule to use a scale with a 3 half steps? like what do I have to follow to sound good? Like, in the first part of the song above, it's played: D# then D then C# then C, then him normally plays coming back F then D# then D then C, respecting the Fmin scale, there's any rule or something that can explain the theory behind this??
     
  10. Kuuhaku

    Kuuhaku Member

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    in 1:47 he play's back three diferent scales, one after the other, but it doesnt sounds bad, it just sounds diferent, looks like it have a "perfect transition" is there some right way to change between scales in a song? some transition that I have to do?
     
  11. mr.personality

    mr.personality Ultrasonic

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    Do you have any examples recorded what you've tried to do and are not satisfied with?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  12. Kuuhaku

    Kuuhaku Member

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    I only have this one but this sounds great and I didn't even understood what I did :( just sounded good idk the reason, I couldn't write something like that again
     
  13. mr.personality

    mr.personality Ultrasonic

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    Well that's a nice idea to develop. Nothing wrong just letting your ears be your guide making music! 99% of what people listen to is easy and pleasing to the ear melodies like you have made here. Musicians made huge careers that way.
    If you want to be the kind of person who can pull off the piece in your OP, then start studying while you keep doing what your doing now. That'll take some time because, even if someone told you exactly what that guy did, it would probably mean zero to you right now, let alone applying it.

    I mean, with all the tools available now. Try opening your score editor and punching in random notes and then do some editing. You'd be surprised how many nice sequences can happen. Again, follow your ear. Try and make a finished song out of it.
    And you can leave it right there making a nice tune. Or, if you really need to know, THEN, you can go back and analyze it, but that's not an absolute necessity.

    IOW, just keep plugging away at it. Eventually you'll start seeing patterns, what works and what doesn't. And you want to know theory, begin to studying that. Geez, you could probably get yourself an uncredited masters or phd in music just from youtube videos, lol
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  14. lbnv

    lbnv Kapellmeister

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    Very nice! :wink: And it's bad that you're repeating it again and again... :dont: Try to develop it.

    The music theory is very important. It's a tool to help you. I always defend the necessity to learn the music theory. But when we talk about composing... First you must have an IDEA. Mood you want to express. Or a cool motive you could develop (like in your example). (These things, mood and motive, depends on each other.) And you have to HEAR (by your inner hearing) what you want to acheive. And you have to be able to SING it. The real singing isn't necessary. Sing to yourself. Without real sounds. You HEAR the IDEA and you can SING it and than play it.

    You can develop your idea absolutely blindly (it's possible but difficult) or by your knowledge (more or less). But first you have to hear it and sing it. Now you can notice "cool changes" in music but you cannot distinguish them by your ear and your mind. They are just "something" in a fast amorphous flow. Your inability to develop or compose something is an effect of the emptiness of your mind (sorry). You have no idea, and you cannot create it in your mind/soul (mind = soul).

    The best way to develop your ability to hear modulations, alterations etc. is listening and learning the theory. Not theoretically, by reading books, but playing it and listening it. Use any instrument you are able to play. Piano, guitar etc., etc., it doesn't matter.

    In total:
    - PLAY (examples from books and manuals, pieces you like, play slowly, divide them in short fragments, repeat every fragment),
    - LISTEN/HEAR,
    - SING it to yourself.

    I think examples from books are the best as they are simple and usually illustrate one "trick".

    EDIT: These three things are ABSOLUTELY necessary to develop your ability to compose and create your vocabulary. Music isn't notes on a staff united by rules from manuals. All "rules" exist on the periphery of your mind, they just help you if you know them.

    What about theory... Read something about the modulation, the alternation (of chords) and passing tones. These topics cover an essential part of what you're interested in.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
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  15. lbnv

    lbnv Kapellmeister

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    It's similar to your speech. You tell to yourself (without real sounds) and you listen/hear it. It's a thought, then you can express it.

    In music you sing to yourself and listen/hear it.

    All music exist here and are born from here.
     
  16. Kuuhaku

    Kuuhaku Member

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    Thank you very much sir :)))))) This was so motivating I really feel so better now :) I will follow what you said :)
     
  17. Kuuhaku

    Kuuhaku Member

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    Wow, thank you very much, you did me a nice guide :D I already know how to play the right hand of this song on piano but I still don't understand how does it sounds so good, but nice! I will follow you instructions :)
     
  18. lbnv

    lbnv Kapellmeister

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    Thank you!

    You could analyze this song. As I understand you're not very familiar with the music theory so it will be difficult for you. But theoretical harmonic analysis isn't as important as listening. It's important but you can deffer the theory, you'll do it a bit later. First train your ears (musical ears). Start from this training. Play, listen, sing... And try to understand what's going on regarding the harmony (chord functions, inversions etc.).

    I'll try to demonstrate what you should listen. Play two simple progressions:

    C major (C E G) - G major (D G H) - C major (E G C2)

    C major (C E G) - G major (D G H) - A minor (E A C2)

    There is no modulation in these progressions but they are different. Melodically they are the same (G - H - C2) but harmonically... Learn to hear such differencies. I think this is what you're intrested in.

    And another thought. You can use chromatic passages (like in your example from the first song) anywhere they fit. There is no "rules". If it sounds cool (if it's logical, appropriate) it's cool. But it goes from your mind/soul. Your melody requires it. You're just see (hear) this possibility (you know/feel it exist) and choose it. The theory will help you to harmonize such passages but it's possible to do it blindly, without knowing it.
     
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  19. This almost says that it's not what you have but what you do with what you have.

    Toots Thielmans as one of many with "Bluesette" and Bill Evans wrote tunes that went through almost all twelve keys.
    As someone suggested, a good melody is a good melody.
     
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  20. Kuuhaku

    Kuuhaku Member

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    Sorry but, what does "H" means? Its "A"?
     
  21. DoubleTake

    DoubleTake Rock Star

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    I have ALL the notes!
    But no one is willing to give me the right time.
    Do you have a link?
     
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