So in the next two months or so I'm planning on building a dedicated DAW PC.
I have build PC's before but they were mere workstations and gaming PC's so absolute silence and DPC latency weren't of that much concern.

Now I've contacted some local DAW builders but the prices seem a little pricey. Sure you get the 1 year warranty, BIOS and OS tweaks but I think I'll be able to address this myself.
I might consider a generic retailer but I don't think they check for DPC latency.

What I'm worried about is the DPC latency. Now I now how to find the culprit and I know how to fix it (if it's fixable) but I also know some hardware drivers simply don't like each other and then there's nothing you can do about it other than replace the particular piece of hardware which is a painstakingly process.

No I'll be using the new Haswell i7 4770k with the new Z87 motherboard with 1150 socket and obviously there's little to none resources available yet about conflicting drivers so I'm wondering if any of you have any experience with your own DAW builds or even these new series and have faced DPC latency.

I'm planning a light overclock to approx. 4,2-4,3 GHz using only the multiplier and I have taking in consideration I'll be needing low profile RAM for my cooler to fit but I'm somewhat reluctant spending days running stability tests and running into DPC issues.

Btw. This is my build (no GPU as I'll be using the onboard i7 one):

Intel Core i7 4770K Boxed
Gigabyte GA-Z87M-D3H
Western Digital Black WD1002FAEX, 1TB
Western Digital Black WD2002FAEX, 2TB
Fractal Design Define R4 Pearl Black
Thermalright HR-02 Macho Rev. A (CPU cooler)
Corsair Vengeance LP CML16GX3M2A1600C9 (2x8GB low profile RAM)
Samsung SH-224BB Zwart DVD combo
Seasonic G-Serie 650Watt
Samsung 840 series Pro 256GB SSD

Total € 1.169,17

Any feedback is appreciated.

 

With ASIO drivers you shouldn't have any problems with latency. I have 5ms of latency and less specs (bloomfield i7 960 @ 3.02) Nice build. That is more than enough. Unless DPC latency is something else.. Lol I wouldn't recommend oc'ing a DAW but it couldn't hurt ;)

 

On the memory side, you may want to look at the Crucial Ballistix (BLT8G3D1608ET3LX0) modules. 8GB DDR3L 1600 CL8 individual modules, low profile and running at 1.35V. Check the price difference in your area.

For the rest, I have built more AMD than Intel so I cannot help you much on that side for compatibility but you definitely want to keep the overall noise to a minimum.

Any Soundcard? Speakers?

 

Yeah, DPC latency is something else. It's caused by hardware drivers and is called Deferred Procedure Calls where prioritizing interrupts can cause audio dropouts.
I am doubting the OC myself but I figure it's only a slight OC so wouldn't put too much stress on the CPU and the cooler should keep it quiet enough without affecting the lifespan.

Very cheap memmory indeed and low CAS. Will check it out although I thought you should always match the voltage of the mobo -in this case 1.5V- or doesn't it matter?
I use an external USB audio interface so that will only draw 2 Watt from the system so I figure I can get away with the foamed case,2 fans plus the cooler (might take the fan of).

 

Years ago i built a Daw Pc for a friend at the time it was more PC then the software could deal with. the goal was more ram, unfortunately to use more the 3.5 gb it had to be 64 bit of course at the time there were few if any 64 bit DAws... now this is not the problem but the idea never changed... you can do this for about 400€ and have more machine then youll know what to do with

there are loads of old xeon servers on e bay. i got mine dual xeon quad core with 16 gb of ram on an intel 5000spl mainboard running win7 64bit and cubase 7

i upgraded the cpus and the power supply ... and a video card... yes there are draw back.. mainly no sata 3 and to updae the ram is really expensive as it isnt made anymore but at a fraction of the cost for high performance system its been well worth it


evol n out

 

I hear you.. Weird thing is I started out wanting to spend as little as possible om my PC, going for the absolute minimum yet being enough for my needs, figured I could do for €600 euros. Then you start looking and comparing and you get greedy. Thing is I want to be able to last my system for at least 5-7 years without any upgrade and then when I finally need to it should replace my mainstream PC. It's a psychological thing. I feel that by investing in a super dedicated machine I will take my musicmaking more serious and put more effort in to it..

About the overkill.. Nowadays you'd be a fool not to go for a SSD for your OS and VST's and when working with Kontakt 16 GB is hardly overkill. I could go for a lesser processor. It might even be wiser as it's streamlined due to it's maturity and that will save me some €200 euro's (as I can get a cheaper mobo as well) but I'd miss out on the hyperthreading that my DAW (Sonar) utilises.
Could also go for less expensive HDD's as it's just bad luck when a drive crashes so reliability is arbitrairy. But like I said, it's mostly psychological. Plus, paying €1200 euro's for a state of the art system isn't throwing away money either..

 

I agree with "AES" on his statement about your ram choice. Asio Drivers and a Fast HardDrive, I think is Key.

 

Yes, I have looked at it and it's got a great CAS for a low price but how about the 1.35V? My Mobo is running at 1,5V. Will this induce latency or other issues?
And btw. my external audio interface has it's own dedicated driver.

 

I just built my 4770k.

ASUS Sabertooth x87 Mobo
(2x8) Gigs of Crucial Ballisix Tactical LP Ram
Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Radeon 5450 Graphics Card
Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 Firewire (TI chipset card)
Axiom 49 Midi Controller
TriggerIO for Alesis Drums
.....and other HDDs etc...

Tweaked Windows 7 for audio. The only programs on this computer are Reaper and PT10 plus a variety of plugins. No games and this computer has never seen the internet.

DPC latency with no programs running and the Firewire off stays below 20us. Once I turn the Saffire Pro on and the Firewire kicks in it goes up to around 40us max. I am so pleased with this!!!! I was using a Geforce 210 graphics card with the latest drivers and that thing would spike my DPC like crazy... up to 800us. Once I got rid of that, it was smooth sailing!

OCed to about 4.3 Ghz at 1.248v on aftermarket air cooler. Was able to get 600 ReaXcomp compressors over 120 tracks of audio at a sample rate of 48000 and a buffer size of 64 with no pops or clicks!!!! CPU was screaming hot at that point (over 70°C). That's not a real world test though as I would never have 120 tracks let alone 600 plugins!!! :0

 

Hi Spiritos your building that with no GPU why?

I would just spend €50 on a GPU just so you get full use of the CPU & RAM. your spending € 1.169,17 so €50 won't make a dent.

 

Good for you! Which cooler did you use for the CPU? And btw. 70°C is not even that hot given the circumstances. They're designed to withstand a 100°C although heat is definitely a big issue with the Haswell. It even made me think about going for an Ivy but that 1155 socket has reached the end of the line so no point in investing in when assembling a new build.

However you did run into some DPC latency issues with the other GPU. Was it hard to find the responsible driver? Cause that's the thing I'm worried about with my build.
Also, could you tell me how much tweaking you had to do for optimising it for audio? Mostly OS tweaks or also a lot of BIOS adjustments?

Hi Lukie, I figured I'd use the GPU of the Haswell and thus reduce noise. I could ofcourse go for a fanless GPU but as soulranger experienced that's another component that could cause DPC latency.
I'm so worried I'm gonna spent days figuring out what component causes DPC and then more weeks sending parts back and forth. Plus I don't think I would notice any benefit from an extra GPU do you?
I run Sonar and Live 9 plus Kontakt. I don't think it requires much graphics power. I gave it some thought but I don't think there's a real need for a GPU but if you can convince me otherwise feel free to explain.

 

It's a really good choice of components, Spiritos. You shouldn't have any problems with it. Going for the latest MBO chipset is a bit risky, though, and you could have an issue here and there with it that will get resolved within a year or so, usually. I am building a system for a client right now, and I'm going with Z77 chipset, also Gigabyte D3H, and a 1055 CPU since I want to avoid any issues whatsoever with it.

Regarding DPC latency, just don't forget to disable Speedstep, and any C1, C2 [if you can see these options] CPU power saving in BIOS. That pretty much in itself resolves the DPC latency issue. Maybe even try to see how it behaves with it turned on first. You never know. Fine tuning is usually a bit of trial and error that takes some time, so that's why no retail companies is doing that, and the ones that do, charge a premium for it.

Cheers!

 

Thanks SineWave. In general I'm not so much of an early adopter, it just happens to be that I need a new PC now which is by chance concurrent with the new Haswell. I've read about issues with USB 3.0 already and I'll be keeping an eye out on new updates and firmware. I assume you are a DAWbuilder and I've noticed for now they all stick with the Ivy and I fully understand.
It's just been a while since I build my last PC so I'm a little rusty and have read horror stories of people with a €2000+ system not getting their DPC latency fixed, hence my doubt.
But thanks for the feedback. I will surely remember it!

 

From the Crucial.com/support website, DDR3L (the L stands for Low Voltage or 1.35v) will run at 1.35v only if the CPU / Chipset combination supports it. Otherwise it will work at 1.5v. I run mine stable at 1.4v as the next step is only 1.3v which is to low.

From the Gigabyte website, the manual of the MB specifies 1.5v but you can override in the BIOS - they just don't give what the values are.
Here is an excerpt of the manual:
Extreme Memory Profile (X.M.P.) (Note), System Memory Multiplier, Memory Frequency(MHz)
The settings above are synchronous to those under the same items on the Advanced Frequency Settings
menu.
.
.
.
Profile DDR Voltage
When using a non-XMP memory module or Extreme Memory Profile (X.M.P.) is set to Disabled, this item
will display as 1.50V. When Extreme Memory Profile (X.M.P.) is set to Profile1 or Profile2, this item will
display the value based on the SPD data on the XMP memory.


For your soundcard and speakers I was just curious of your setup.

Regardless of the DAW software used, the plugins will dictate how well your CPU speed vs number of cores will benefit you most. As an example, fast strings passages, marcato, full legato, with harmonics can bring Kontakt to it's knees at 128 samples / buffer size on a 3.2 GHz 6 cores AMD Phenom II and a RME Fireface UC or M-Audio FastTrack Pro. Increasing the buffers size helps, however the latency worsens and becomes extremely difficult to manage sync playing. This is an extreme scenario but shows some of the limits of my friends gear (and mine).

That being said, I think you are looking at a great system already and unless you need to do something extreme like above, it should more than suffice.

 

Really thanks for all the helpfull input, guys. Like I mentioned it's been a while so I'm a little nervous building this PC.

All the feedback has left me with some final questions:

1) I chose not to add an extra GPU. I'll be working with one large monitor but I might consider adding a second in the future as my worklow may change. I also know more contemporary VST's tend to utilise the GPU. Now I know the i7 supports 2 monitors but do you think I will benefit from an extra GPU? The drawback from my perspective is that adding a GPU will increase the amount of IRQ lines amd thus draw priority from audio so what is wise?

2) Despite AES's answer I'm still unsure whether it's better to go with 1,35V on a 1,5V RAM mobo/chipset. Aside from the powersavings will there be any benefits in choosing lower voltage RAM?

3) Given the fact the Haswell gets extremely hot with only mild OC-ing would you recommend OC-ing at all or maybe wait for the first firmware updates to arrive? Some say OC-ing a DAW is a no-go either way since it increases the chance of instability and will reduce the lifespan no matter how stable you set it up.

 

If you have already built computers in the past, things have not changed that much from a builder's perspective (mobo, CPU, Heatsink, memory, connectors and slots). The parts look different, the standards changed (i.e.: SATA vs. ATA vs. MFM, PCIe vs. PCI-X vs. PCI vs. local bus, vs. micro channel vs. EISA vs. ISA etc...) but the basic building blocks remain the same. Static discharge prevention remains in effect... Sigh, I remember the good old Apple ][ days.

1) Good choice, if need be, you can add later. By then it will also be cheaper for the same you would get today. For the IRQ lines, unless you run multiple cards, the internal one can normally be disabled in the BIOS so it should not be an issue. If you have to add a GPU for processing power, noise (fan) may become an issue so be careful of the "quiet" hype as is it always compared to something but a lot forget to mention what that something is (a jet engine is quiet compared to a rocket engine).

2) On the memory side, today they are all dual voltage.
Older DDR3 ran 1.9v-2.1v or 1.65v-1.9+v and you want to stay away from these as they are off spec for todays mobo - especially Intel.
Newer DDR3 run either at 1.5v-1.65v (DDR3) or 1.35v-1.5v (DDR3L) and both will work fine with the mobo you have chosen.
The important part for the memory is not to mix as much as possible (if you add 16GB later, use the same model). If you have to mix, then do not mix the 1st (1.65v-1.9v) and the DDR3L. If you end up mixing the DDR3L and the DDR3 (1.5v-1.65v), you have to run them both at 1.5v (only common denominator). Also, the CL difference will force the lower common denominator (higher number usually). The reason I suggested the Crucial was for BOTH 1.35v and CL8 but it runs fine and in spec at 1.5v - the CL8 is a bit harder to beat for DDR3 1600 and then the price - here it is cheaper than the one you are looking at.

Either one will work fine, you may be able to get a bit better performance with the CL8 but then again it may not be relevant except in the most extreme tweaking / fine tuning of the hardware and BIOS settings. If you can run it at 1.35v via X.M.P. or entering the data manually (I do not have that mobo to check it and the manual doesn't give all the possibilities), it will generate a little less heat.

3) For DAW, I normally do not recommend overclocking because of extra heat (and noise to evacuate) and lifespan possible changes of components. We are on the same wavelength for this one.

All that being said, you have a good project on hand and I wish you best of luck; seriously if you already built computers before you will be fine - just follow the instructions that comes with everything and if in doubt - ask.

 

@AES: Thanks for your most elaborate answer. The memory voltage runnings are clear to me now. As for the OC I suppose it always remains a matter of choice if one is willing to take the risk.
Maybe I'll take a quick peek to see how well my CPU clocks and then decide if it's worth it. I do tend to believe DAW's draw more benefit from raw GHz power than cores but with turbo boost the i7 4770k already charges to 3,9 GHz and with the heat issues involved it's worth considering to leave it to rest.

About the GPU I though I meant it more as a 'principal' question. I'm inclined to stick with my decision to go without an extra GPU -for the same arguments you gave- but there are different schools of thought about what is supposed to be 'better' in general for a DAW-build. Much like the paging file discussion whether or not to have one or keep it at a minimum.

Now that I think of it, what are your thoughts on that topic? Should I go for a paging file or simply disable it?

Btw. Maybe I'm dragging on a little here (and if so I apologise) but I just like to get as much feedback as I can since I'd rather be safe than sorry ;)

 

You are welcome.

For the CPU, generally speaking I agree that raw speed helps more, unless you write a symphony of over 20 concurrent tracks of complex instruments with effects, then the higher number of cores will be as important as the speed of them. There are workarounds like converting everything to wave and then mixing with the effects (that is what most pros end up doing by the way) but that means the production is more trouble to edit at that point.

I do not know what you will be using your DAW for and what plugins / VST / FX will be used with it so it is hard to make a good recommendation (Kontakt depends on what you load for memory use, number of concurrent voices and CPU load). Generally speaking, if you have enough memory to handle everything, the paging file can be kept to a minimum. Disabling the page file may prevent some applications / utilities from loading as some do check if virtual memory is present and will refuse to load if not. I keep mine to a min and max of 800M to prevent such occurrences but you may be able to get by with the minimum the OS allows. If you use Windows 8, there is also a swap file that gets configured and I did not have the time to analyze that one yet.

On the optimization, generally speaking always, I also disable the hibernation file (powercfg -hibernate off), prevent the drives from spinning down and disable the memory dump. Cubase 7 sets up it's own power profile in Windows 7 / 8 but I don't think that Sonar does. You may want to check those settings.

Will the DAW be connected to the internet? If not you can disable most network related stuff unless required by the software you use. Also be careful of antiviruses, they tend to be resource hogs. In other words, keep extras to a minimum and use intelligently like, disable autorun and scan any USB keys you put in vs. automatic always on background on access checks, etc...

In summary, there are my ways to optimize the system, however try it first with minimum optimization and if more power is required then you can look at more optimization (you can go far down the rabbit whole here so be careful).

Have fun!

 

Ok. I'll stick with Win7 and paging for now but haven't decided yet about letting it connect to the internet.
Sonar does come with it's own profile (that utilises MMCSS) but I also use Live 9 so guess I'll have to see about that.

Thanks!

 

Most sequencers or plugins devellopers recommands GIGABYTE mobo for best perfomance on a daw.

ASUS is for gamers.

A good mobo and a fast drive are the key for a fast system.