Thanks @G String to give an explanation that @Seedz was unable to give.

I see there the crazy idea that genes would be causals ("Nobody says genes have feelings or a sense of self - rather those things are the products of genes and, ultimately, serve as a vehicle for the further propagation of the self-replicating genes."), this idea is like a religious belief without any proofs whatsoever, a dumb scientist religious belief, and I don't believe in this as I explained it earlier.

More recents developments with genetics tend to show that the consciousness and the life experience could modify the genetics.

The only truth is that we currently know nothing about all that. The mystery is immense and the known is very tiny.

Some believe that it is the brain that create the consciousness : they are only crazy obscurantists unable to think by themselves. The brain is not the cause of consciousness, it is one consequence of consciousness. Well, blindness, and behaving like sheeps, are everywhere.

 

So, how do you feel about the state in which humanity is living?
That would be your moral judgment about it.
Of course nature doesn't "care", and only we are fit to judge and to care, on way or another.
Do you judge nature to be immoral?
Or perhaps don't see any morality in it.
I could give some reasoning about a morality in nature besides the fact that we are a product of nature, and we have this thing "morality".
Perhaps it means broadening our idea of what is moral to encompass more.
Maybe we think nature's basic morality is not worth considering.
It DOES seem pretty crude and "barbaric" compared to what we have been passing along in our sophisticated complexity...
But understanding how the morality we have emerges from it does not diminish our morality, but gives it a history.
I don't think it is just wishful thinking to see morality in nature, but just seeing things more clearly.
It exposes some uncomfortable things about our judgments and what we are as humans...
but it also gives some reasons to forgive ourselves.
It gives no excuses for behaviors...after all we have to live with each other so WE make the rules...
but there are some reasons to avoid the violent disgust response towards humanity.

What is it that is "self-serving" at our very core?
Given what you say HOW CAN IT BE that we keep getting nicer to each other and societies keeps improving around the world?
We use "self-serving" in a bad way in talking about our behavior, but when it comes to the unconscious and "non-mental" aspects perhaps we should not be so "judge-mental". That is to pass a moral judgment on nature itself.
What serves us , on average over time, has led to "how things are", and how things are is "better" morally than in the past.
And there do seem to be connections between "nature" and human moral judgments...
But we can not bypass the connections to judge one from the other. We must hold the chain in mind and withhold that kind of final judgment.
It is not easy. We are evolved to make judgments, mostly from emotional cues, and to act on them, often violently...
But if we realize what our brains/biology is doing, it helps to counter it.

 

So what you are arguing for, in effect, is that I'm wrong and humanity is intrinsically good. All the bad shit that has happened throughout the ages, which continues to this day unabashed, is not something fundamental in our make up but because we chose to be bad.
No, I'm just not convinced by that at all.

And for the record, I don't doubt all humanity, as stated before in this thread. There is always hope more people will chose to go against our natural state.

 

Yes, you're right !... AND you're wrong, too !...

Very interesting topic, very interesting reactions/contributions. Seems that there, we're (collectively) trying to be at the core of many fundamental things.

I understand that you denounce the evil, and you desperately wish for the good.
Sorry, I don't manage to be subtle with the argumentations, english being not my native language. Why don't we speak french, which allows more subtleties.

 

Our nature is dual, but this will lead me to metaphysic considerations, in a language I don't master

 

I have no issue with your position and appreciate your post.

Because Waterloo

 

Nicely explained Cheers

 

Well, there ya go, feelings of bitterness and anger will be the result if you believe this. You are part of humanity and as you yourself said that you believe there is not one great thing about us so there is not one great thing about you either. So if everyone is equally just plain psychotic inwardly why even bring this up? Why not enjoy the news that constantly pump out messed up things that will ruin a perfectly good day in 10 minutes? Why bother bringing up any kind of explanation to this "fact" and just enjoy the proverbial ride to hell? Why not live it up and party until your liver and kidneys are too shot to last till Tuesday and you just croak? It would be the perfect thing to just off ourselves right now and never would we even be able or required to be alive again to experience this horrible horrible world, just fade out with a glorious Big Bang. No?

 

Totally disingenuous post, right there. From my reply you post about feelings of bitterness and anger. There are none here, on show or otherwise.

You state "you yourself said that you believe there is not one great thing about us". That's just not true, and besides, I don't believe that at all and certainly never wrote it. Quote me if you can.

Again you make an attempt to create a narrative by using "if everyone is equally just plain psychotic", when I've made not inference to that end. I have said that man's default is "aggression, possession, prejudice and victory through self preservation", which isn't in my dictionary a definition of psychotic.
psychotic
sʌɪˈkɒtɪk/
adjective
adjective: psychotic
1.
relating to, denoting, or suffering from a psychosis.
"a psychotic disturbance"
synonyms: severely mentally ill, insane, mad, certifiable, deranged, demented, of unsound mind, out of one's mind, not in one's right mind, not together, crazed, lunatic, unbalanced, unhinged, unstable, disturbed, distracted, stark mad, maniac, maniacal, manic, frenzied, raving, distraught, frantic, hysterical, delirious, mad as a hatter, mad as a March hare;

Then you give mock, spurious reasoning to satiate your fixation on why I started the topic. I've replied to you twice now on that already. Sometime you'll just have to accept the answer given.

Looks like you have to bend or create truth. Is it because you're angry and bitter? Are you showing prejudice? Being possessive and seeking a victory through self preservation?

 

No, rather I'd say man is (clearly) both.

I don't know about "natural state" but clearly you have hope and some sense of good / bad. That's "good" isn't it? ;) Interesting thread though.

From Wiki: "Dawkins said he "can readily see that [the book's title] might give an inadequate impression of its contents" and in retrospect thinks he should have taken Tom Maschler's advice and called the book The Immortal Gene."

You can make it plural if you prefer? The Immortal Genes? The Selfish Genes? Anyway, it's about all genes, not just one or some. It's an amazing book, honestly.

Epigenetics. But who are you listening to about it? Someone selling Quantum Consciousness, Alien Bones and suchlike? ;)

No? How do you know? You do also say:

Yet you know the brain isn't 'the cause of consciousness.' Would you concede that the brain is at least a good candidate? ;)

 

i see you have slowed your roll some but lets just revisit some of the magic from the heady days of earlier in this thread. the frivolous casting of wisdom's pearls beneath the cloven hooves of swine with gay abandon. ahh... those were the days.

"Hate is much more than..."

"History says..."

"reality based..."

look at this mess. far reaching pomp. when are you going to stop intellectually strutting, posturing, preening, swatting at meaningless fluff, and actually start proving some of this crap.

this is an example of the what you have claimed is historic and scientific evidence to back your ridiculous "hate is humanity" claim. pure reductionist rhetoric.

put some substance behind all these spurious claims and then you can take your victory strut amongst the bespectacled unawakened masses.

 

Last edited: Sep 15, 2018

Yes, it's interesting to see how some have approached the topic, and a little bit sad for those who blew it.

 

i see we are trying our hand at comedy now.

 

I wanna blow it too! And now for a brief intermission...

Intermission complete ...Carry on

 

short people, man... ( extra for pop corn and jujubees )

 

yuh, its the way to go. totally.

its pretty easy i have heard, in a very general sense, if one were to say hold someone (no one in particular, but it helps if they are very sensitive genius) to their claims, said person may choose to make up spurious arbitrary rules that will lead to you being blown.

then you will start enjoying life a whole lot more.

 

I find it funny that you added an actual definition for the word psychotic after your reply, no doubt hoping to disconnect your own words from it. But see that is just the whole point you are not allowing yourself to see. All of the synonyms for the word psychotic fit quite well with your own words "aggression, possession, prejudice and victory through self preservation" because you assume that to be the natural state of man which of course leaves you unable to see the contradiction in your own mind and your own insanity. To be aggressive, possessive, prejudiced and seeking victory through self preservation is exactly what an insane mind is and because we are all collectively in the same state of mind with varying degrees we allow ourselves to act in the most insane of ways all the while coming up with excuses for our behavior, effectively cancelling out any inner knowing of what is right to do and what is wrong to do, which is present in every single organism, because this world REQUIRES a balanced, harmonic relationship with all the living beings it grows on it and the same goes for every species of plant, animal, insect and the rest. The reason why there are animals that act in the same insane fashion as us, is because the electromagnetic fields surrounding the planet, where the subconscious mind of mankind lies (as well as every other species) is filled to the brim with energies manifesting fear and hate and every other negative feeling you can imagine and it interferes with the electric "mind fields" of every species on this planet, there are other reasons to this of course but this one is best tied to this topic.

Also to reply to your question about my anger, bitterness and, yes, of course I am, I even said as much in a previous reply if you had actually bothered to read it. So what? Negative emotions are inescapable and they are about the most powerful signs to show you what might be wrong with you, if you take the time to listen to them and ponder. And about being prejudiced, possessive and seeking a victory through self-preservation, well yes and no. It's more about the people that I care about and the qualities I care about in every human being being trampled on by your "understanding" and it just pissed me right off. Especially the part where you said " There is always hope more people will chose to go against our natural state." in an other reply shows me that you don't know a god damn thing about life. A mind perfectly engineered to today's standards.

And lastly, it was a genuine question not a mocking, one which you left unanswered and as to the answer you gave to why you started this topic, all colored with bullshit and hidden under a veneer.

 

So basically you have a very strong opinion about something about which you are completly ignorant?.....wouldn't it have been easier to simply say no, I haven't read when I asked the first time?

I will add that the author goes to some length to explain the title selection in the introduction, not that that matter to you in the slightest.

As regards to the smarter things you have to do may I suggest that you go and wank Seagulls?

Original enough?

The question marks are all rhetorical btw

"Sigh" theres just no talking to some sheeple......bye

 

In your attempt to obfuscate, that's a lot of words to say f*ck all of any worth.

Any luck with that quote I asked for? That's important for an honest discussion.
You need to provide it, or give an apology for lying.

 

The scientific evidence shows the lesser intelligence the more violent. for example sociopaths literally have whole sections of brain not functioning right.
it is fact you have to misunderstand to hate, you have to picture reality in your thoughts in distorted and incomplete false way in order to be violent, cruel, hateful etc.
only the broken look at another and don't see all the ways they themselves are the same as the other.
only the ignorant hate others.


any example of even being angry with another in any way to the smallest level requires misunderstanding and some ignorance.

 

Last edited: Sep 15, 2018