Cheers

 

Indeed that is true.That's why i insisted on people who manage to sell their stuff. They usually find a recipe that has great adoption and thy stick on it.That is kinda lame and annoying to other artists struggling to innovate more each time , and still they never reach the top (speaking about popularity).Here comes the "industry" to decide who succeeds, for their reasons.

Actually i'm not 100% sound designer , but part of my job is sound design.I work for a production house as a post production supervisor (no t's not a Hollywood sized studio).When I started working there i used to "switch positions" between a sound designer and a mixing engineer.Then i worked exclusively on audio restoration.I rarely do that nowadays.

 

Do you ever get the feeling you are slamming your head against a solid brick wall? :P

 

I really only have two questions for you. You don't have to answer of course, but why do you think with all the hundreds of millions of dollars spent on the movies in the poll alone (let alone all the others) Hanz Zimmer was approached to create the themes and not say.. you or I?
I can honestly say I could only dream of being in the same league as HZ, because I know my limits, now what''s your excuse?

 

There are possibly 4 or 5 people that have created their own genre in film music in the last 25 years. Hans is one of them. I think just about every musician in the industrialized countries and certainly 95% of anyone that makes music on a computer can easily answer you "what does Hans Zimmer music sound like?"

Changing from a noun to an adjective is the pinnacle of success in any artistic field. There is a world before you and then the world after you have made your mark.

This is a degree of success that very few people have ever achieved in any artistic endeavor in the known history of the world.

Whether you personally like or dislike his music is irrelevant. It only informs us of your preferences. I believe it is intellectually dishonest to say that he isn't the most successful film composer of his generation. Even if you discount the musical/artistic side of his work, the advancements that he has made in sampling, instrument design, production, presentation/branding and business give him the top spot in my book.

Whether you accept what he has achieved or not doesn't say anything about Hans, only about your own perception of reality.

I personally like other composers work more, but no one has had a stronger influence on the procedure, the texture and the function of film music music than HZ.

You can tell from one note who you are hearing and he elevates what would often be a tedious, by the numbers, run of the mill movies into a cinematic experience that are worth taking time out of your life to witness.

Hans has created more opportunities for careers than anyone else in the world of film music. Half of the top 30 film composers in the world came through his shop. Without his recognition and mentorship many of the greats that we all love today would have stayed making chamber music, advertising music or teaching and never have had the support to establish a career in Hollywood.

To his detractors on here and elsewhere, I can say I also used to think that he was a terrible writer and didn't do his own work. I felt it was fair to say that what he did was diminished because he could afford a team and enlisted the help of other musicians and composers.

The more I learned and the more time went on you could see a clear pattern. The man is a dream factory. He creates spectacular experiences for his audiences (and clients), pushes the boundaries of technology and almost on an annual basis delivers another voice to the world in the form of a protege.

By slighting him you sound pathetic, small and envious. Not to mention delusional about the facts of his case.

 

Too many times since i have registered here

 

annoying to other artists struggling to innovate more each time... Hanz Zimmer was approached to create the themes and not say..

Yeah, it's the eternal struggle against phoning it in. Well, unless ur complacent. And safe. Which is prolly what "Hollywood" is looking for. Partly (wholely?) because of Teh Frame. Also, why isn't that niche clique I love more popular

But Teh Frame was given an opportunity - permission even - 2 innovate, which is all the more irksome when he pisses out derivative, inoffensive, forgettable fluff. He had the chance 2 create his own (scoring) version of Pixar (for example) and hire untapped talent 2 innovate with music tech, instead of replicate / stagnate. But I think he thought "fuck that!" and bought a swimming pool made of diamonds.

U made me think about the guy who inspired me, still pretty much broke-ass musician, still innovating, still an inspiration, technically. I just wish he had the opportunity that the likes of Zimmer had. We'd have smiles on our faces all through fucking Batman. Wait, let me rephrase!

Here comes the "industry" to decide who succeeds, for their reasons

It seems 2b as much who gives our bowels / the cinema's speakers a good workout, using multiple fucking omni-sound drones, as anything. It wud b a bit depressing if movie scoring is done by studio stipulation - "our focus groups tested 90% "like" when they shit themselves! We need far more shit, Hans!"

 

Well sometimes i think of that myself too.What if i was the best audio engineer in the world? But at the same time i know i am the worst businessman in the world.So coming to a conclusion. If we could measure Zimmer's and Frame's talent, and we found that they have the same amount.Or if you prefer, Zimmer had much less talent than Frame.In the end, Zimmer appears to be far better businessman than Frame.And even if we don't want to follow that path, in the end, this is what counts more. (or if you like, this is what makes accounts more filled with money)

 

By slighting him you sound pathetic, small and envious

I try my hardest to sound pathetic, small and envious; so it's good that someone finally noticed :D But I don't remember slighting him? I think his muzak is quite inoffensive; it sometimes hits the heights and is quite dull (perhaps) some of the time. People have different tastes, I guess. But I tried 2 use an objective measure - how memorable is his Dm, phoned-in, repetitive, generic toss? I cud only remember 2 things he'd done, and it turns out he didn't even write one of them! Like I said, I voted GFG as his best soundtrack, and tried 2 explain what is wrong with promoting Teh Frame in topics like this.

I just worry about the future. When hiring someone (from Audiosex? Me? You?) 2 write a score in the future, execs will say "write a theme like that Han$$$ Zimmer guy!", "forget artistry, focus on branding!", "Forget technique... we need more people to shit themselves!", "Become an adjective!!"... Say goodbye to innovation! Say hello 2 regurgitating, so long as it's in D minor! And sounds like a synth demo!

Zimmer had much less talent than Frame

I dunno, I'm (honestly) talking about some random (hero) dude called Aleksi who nobody knows! But it's not really about talent, per se. I don't know if Hans has any moar "talent" than (for example) Aleksi or you, or me. Since he's just phoned it in, never demonstrating any personality / skill / balls / whatever. But he (Zimmer) was the guy chosen (seemingly) as the guy 2 represent ppl who use VSTi (ie u & me) in Hollywood. And produced very little, except a depressing template. A depressing Frame. And the most depressing thing is if we are expected (or worse mandated) 2 follow it 2...

 

Clearly you have no idea what is involved to have a career in film music with literally 10,000 people competing against you for the same 125 movies per year.
Hans is a miracle. To last as long as he has in the business and to continuously work with the people at the top of the industry is a rare, rare achievement. To deliver what is right for the film is a very specific task. I can bet even as a casual listener with a tin ear you (and most people that have seen a movie) could match a sample of several of his iconic scores with the films they go with. Finding a hook and sonic signature for each project, especially after doing it for so many decades is his special talent. Most of the time writing traditional "memorable" themes is the equivalent of a raging Eddie Van Halen guitar solo in your delicate tween pop emo ballad. There just isn't the screen time or the sonic space to do that in a modern big budget tentpole movie. The job is to deliver the "feeling", many times that doesn't involve a "John Williamseque" melodic statement.

In addition to sounding small, jealous and pathetic you can add "aggressively blathering to the world my lack of knowledge on the topics of which I speak" to your list of skills. You are amazing at that.

 

Ah, that is a serious question my friend.That kinda scares me too,not only in this genre,but in every genre.This is a big discussion.

 

The only thing we can do, Producer, is keep practising, keep learning and try 2 innovate, man... I just hope that it becomes a fad to open topics plugging unheard-of musicians who deserve wider attention, instead of this calamity of a topic!

There are possibly 4 or 5 people.. Changing from a noun to an adjective is the pinnacle of success.. if you discount the musical/artistic side of his work (!)... presentation/branding and business give him the top spot in my book... Hans is a miracle (!)... no one has had a stronger influence on the procedure (!)... The man is a dream factory. He creates spectacular experiences (!!)...

This sounds like an hilarious press release! Well done 4 going the full Spinal Tap! That last one makes me genuinely LOL. Although (Uwe) Bollesque was a thing... I've never heard of Zimmeresque, Zimmerish? Maybe: Zimmerlar..? to that last Dm nonentity that nobody can recall?

music with literally 10,000 people competing against you

Pfft. U went from 4-5 ppl to 10k all of a sudden! Maybe that makes being an established part of the Hollywood furniture seem moar impressive?

There just isn't the screen time or the sonic space to do that in a modern big budget tentpole movie

There just aren't enough imaginary, fantastical excuses 2 go around, it seems. At least; for being totally and utterly forgettable, a key feature of most if not all of Teh Frame's output. As far as ur thesis goes: I take it u missed small indie movies like Harry Potter? Force Awakens? Fury Road? U might almost argue that (in the last) they made "space" for the (van Halen :P) sound in the movie, which was arguably moar astonishing for it.

Call me a philistine idiot, but I always thought the main idea behind a movie score is to provide some kind of emotional feedback and (ideally) be memorable, at least. I'm not sure anything Zimmer has written has enough range to do the former, and I've only seen one (or two?) examples of the latter.

 

This is interesting.I never though of that in this way.Having spent 4-5 years choosing the right music bed for soap operas and literally having to put one on every scene because they never had a clean vocal track to rely on,i was always thinking that a movie relies on balance.For example you have comedy on one side and drama on the other.If the (drama) script is good it tilts to the drama side.If the acting is pathetic it tilts to the other side.This continues with directing,coloring etc.If we suppose all this stuff added balanced in the middle,music comes in to save the movie being dramatic, or completely destroy it by tilting on the neutral or comedy side.So i was always thinking that music had it's own space and there was no need to make space.But what you said makes me reconsider my thoughts as i remember having the ability to cooperate with the video editor and build an action scene for example on music.That gave us the option to do jump cuts time warps and other stuff to make the video fit exactly on the music and have that rhythm that we demanded.We could even change a scene's duration just to fit the score.Again having your opinion in mind, triggered me to think of it.I could talk about that for hours but we are once again getting off topic.

 

Im sure you can provide us with your material and shool us the way its supposed to be done,eventually the teacher has to show his pupils an example so they can learn

 

Call me a philistine idiot, but I always thought the main idea behind a movie score is to provide some kind of emotional feedback and (ideally) be memorable, at least. I'm not sure anything Zimmer has written has enough range to do the former, and I've only seen one (or two?) examples of the latter.[/QUOTE]

Philistine idiot,

I am glad you offered some examples of what you consider to be "memorable" film music. We clearly have different preferences in terms of films and film music. I also think we have a disagreement on the measure of "success" in the film music business.

I still maintain that no one has made a bigger contribution to film music in the last 25 years in terms of advancing the technology, workflow and expanding the range of acceptable sounds in mainstream corporate films. Additionally he has been king of the mountain virtually for his entire career for the last 30 years. A huge achievement.

No one in the film music industry has done more to make opportunities for up and coming composers than Hans Zimmer. No one even comes close. All of the film music programs in all of the colleges of the world have not created more working film composers in hollywood than Hans Zimmer. Fact.

In my opinion there are only a few composers working today (or in the last 15 years) that you can instantly tell who they are in the first few notes. Hans has established a unique voice and approach to scoring that any honest observer could admit.

Scoring movies is a service that you provide to a client, clearly the people that make films and decide who to hire over the last 30 years have wanted what Hans was offering. It is much more than just the final result it is an entire process that he has refined and expanded over the decades and many others have emulated in their own careers. Directors and film studios know that Hans can consistently deliver something that no one else in town can. Others can imitate him but with each new score he innovates.

As far as your examples of big budget corporate films that have memorable themes or melodic statements. You are correct, I did not see any of the Harry Potter movies. I am not part of that demographic. I have heard some of both John Williams' and Desplat's scores. Williams is typical late period Williams (Genius) and Desplat's is passable in the shadow of Williams.

Force Awakens was a terrible movie. JJ Abrahams is not my favorite filmmaker. To me it had less soul than Phantom Menace or one of the other 2nd Trilogy films and was just a schlocky rehashed reboot like all of his other movies. If you are holding up Force Awakens as an example of excellent film music, I would agree that it was amazingly great music, back when he wrote it 40 years ago. As far as memorable I would bet that it is memorable even to you because you have been beaten over the head with it your entire life. I think you will admit that the use of music in Force Awakens is anomalous for the current era of filmmaking. The use of operatic themes is much more in style of the 60s,70s and 80s. BTW can you sing off the top of your head any of the unique music from Episode III: Revenge of the Sith?

Fury Road. Junkie XL literally owes his whole career to eating the scraps that fall off of Hans Zimmer's table. He owes his whole education to spending years at the feet of the master. It is an enjoyable film and the music expands and propels the experience adequately. I am not sure you are making your case for memorable themes though. The "emotional theme" is painfully weak (but adequate) and a great example of the "white keys" type of composing you have been decrying. I thought his theme from Deadpool was much more memorable, but the musical impact of Fury Road was much stronger.

If you measure other composers by Williams then yes, there is a wide gap between excellence and everything else. But if you measure by the total experience of seeing the film and the music's positive contribution to that experience I don't think you will find anyone that has had a longer career than Zimmer in inventing signature hooks and expanding the way that music solidifies the total experience of seeing a film.


Let's look at some of the busier composers in the last 5 years and compare them to Hans's career?

1. Cliff Martinez - unique identifiable sound, minimalist,non-traditional, worked with top directors on important films. Themes you can sing or remember = 0, other composer's careers he has spawned = 0.

2. Alexandre Desplat - Less unique sound or individual voice. Very inconsistent output. Strong in orchestral but lacks sonic experimentation or expansion of film music language. Themes you can remember or sing = 3-4, addition careers spawned = 0

3. Michael Giaccino - Anonymous sound, milquetoast at best. Lucky to have made friends with Abrahams. Memorable themes = 1?, Other composer's spawned = 0

4. Marco Beltrami - An acceptable alternative if you can't get Hans. Inconsistent output. Has done interesting lower profile work. Otherwise generic. Memorable = 1-2 Other careers = 1

5. Danny Elfman - Unique sound, has done well in fantasy, dramas and superhero movies. Expanded the language over his long career. Memorable themes - 10-15, careers spawned = 0

 

I personally prefer a composer like John Barry over Mr. Zimmer!

Mr. John Barry:


I know you can´t vote for John Barry in the pool, but on the other hand that pool isn´t complete for a vote for Mr. Zimmer!... so.....

 

John Barry deserves his own thread and poll,my friend
Amazing composer.

 

@ClaudeBalls Man you did your homework really well.This was a very nice presentation.I agree on the composers list. Bertrami is another favorite.And Elfman has my respect too.Sometimes i think that his "next 3 days" score, fits in 80% of all the movies.Here's a Beltrami's favorite