Getting the song's info (when even the advanced ear training does not help)

Discussion in 'Our Music' started by foster911, Nov 3, 2015.

  1. z3r0

    z3r0 Ultrasonic

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    Phrygian starts on the 3rd degree of ANY scale no matter which key you are in. In this case because of the presence of Bb Eb and Ab and the fact that the passage centers around G then it is the phrygian mode of the key of Eb major. The 2nd, Ab (the fourth above Eb), is played and not implied. Modes are indeed scales. How astute of you to have noticed ;)
    PS. To call it G phrygian is a bit wrong. If someone said to me play G phrygian I would play a mode based on the key of G major and therefore play a mode based on its 3rd degree B which would give it a Bm implied sound. B C D E F# G A B.
    PPS. There are 2 types of any relative minor scale. Melodic and Harmonic. In the case of G minor (Relative Major Bb);
    Melodic: G A Bb C D E(natural) F# G and descending G F(natural) Eb D C Bb A G
    Harmonic: G A Bb C D Eb F# G and Descending G F# Eb D C Bb A G
    Either way you never flatten the 7th (you always raise it) as you have wrongly done in your example of your incomplete ascending G melodic minor above.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
  2. kouros

    kouros Platinum Record

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    No. Phrygian starts on the 3rd degree of the diatonic (major) scale. G Phrygian starts on the 3rd degree of Eb major.

    That is a way of looking at things based on key signatures. I prefer to just look at it has simply G Phrygian.

    Of course it is played (on the example) but generally speaking you could have a piece where the melodic line never touches the b2 but the background structure has that b2.

    Either way, if you read carefully, that's not even what I wrote but you can exchange the word "implied" by "played" and will still mean the same thing. You can listen to a piece of music that you know rightaway "it's minor" but only a few bars later you'll be able to tell if it's phrygian, dorian or anything else beyond natural minor.

    Yes, I can be astute. Right now I am sensing a pedantic attitude with little focus on music or helping anyone.
     
  3. iluvhiphop

    iluvhiphop Kapellmeister

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    I have never had any musical training really. I don't know what the keys on my keyboard is called. A, B or E, it's all the same to me. But if I listen to something a few times, I can play it with very few errors the first time. After 4-5 tries, I have it perfect, and can do it with any piece of music as long as it is not advanced classical, neo-soul(seriously fuck this genre, I cannot do it) or a particularly tricky piece of music.

    This is not just me. Many many people do it the exact same way I do. How is working by ear ineffective?
     
  4. kouros

    kouros Platinum Record

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    Since you added this to your post above...

    You're wrong. There's nothing wrong with flattening. The problem is that you refuse to understand that there's life outside the rules of staff writing. Just because you don't understand something, don't assume it is wrong.. try learning about it first.

    What I wrote above is correct, period.
     
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  5. kouros

    kouros Platinum Record

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    To clear up the mess for anyone who's reading this..

    Key signatures have no degrees, scales do.

    You won't find Phrygian on the 3rd degree of ANY scale. For instance, the 3rd degree of an A minor scale will give you C Ionian (major), not Phrygian. The modes can be seen as formulas based on their steps/half steps (diatonically), that's what differentiates them.

    R 2 3 4 5 6 7 being major, R 2 3 #4 5 6 7 being Lydian, etc.

    One should be able to HEAR the modes by themselves and not just ocurrances within a major scale framework, which is what happens to a lot of people.. so beware! :guru:
     
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  6. kouros

    kouros Platinum Record

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    The funny thing is that I get paid to teach but I always feel the need to research more and more to know what "mindblocks" people can get trapped in when thinking about music. I've had my own blocks, I questioned them and I "answered" them but to me that's not enough because we are humans we don't all think alike. That's why I do these online things on forums.

    Even funnier is that the people who are willing to pay me to learn with me are doing it out of "appreciation" for my methods and approach to musical matters... while at the same time I get some people like you at online forums when I am sharing knowledge for free. :rofl:


    Moderately funny is the fact that people will blindly follow anything that comes from a source that they consider "reputable" without even questioning the validity and/or context. When someone like me comes along and instead of saying "this is the rule" tells you to "look for yourself, try a different perspective, learn context by studying music history and you'll really own the knowledge".. nah, that's all new age bollocks.

    Now that I think of it, it's kinda sad but hey, it's life. :wink:
     
  7. kouros

    kouros Platinum Record

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    ..and quoting myself to develop this thought further, I get my own students to question whatever they learn from me. Memorizing a sentence is one thing, understanding it and having it reflecting upon what you do or how you think, that's a completely different thing. I am not satisfied until I feel that the other person is explaining it back to me in their OWN words with their OWN musical examples.
     
  8. ClaudeBalls

    ClaudeBalls Producer

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    Kouros, to me your info is solid and you provided the actual answer to the question that eventually the OP will figure out he needs to ask.

    I will say though, I am not sure if you mean to be or not, but to me you do come off a little aggressive and intolerant right from your first response. I think that makes people want to argue with you (even if they don't fully know what they are talking about). I can tell from their responses that their "knowledge" isn't based in actual real world usage like yours is. Don't get discouraged, it is an honorable thing to be a link in the chain of music. Just don't wear yourself out yelling at a goat in Portuguese. I feel very lucky when I read these posts that I was born into a family were music was all around and we got into it when we were very young. I admire people that start to pursue music later in life or grew up in a situation where they were left on their own to learn about music. I think it is fantastic and I understand why you can't help yourself from trying to illuminate things for people genuinely who want to learn.
     
  9. ClaudeBalls

    ClaudeBalls Producer

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    I think the big advantage for by-ear people to learn about basic theory is that it will allow them to go faster working alone and get their ideas across easier to others. It let's you know what your options are before you get there. It gives you the ability to expand your ideas while the inspiration is fresh. Sometimes fishing around for ideas is just enough friction to loose the mood. When you are playing in a group it is always great to know what is happening without having to ask or look, and if you want to improvise it really expands your possibilities to clearly understand how the notes relate to each other.
     
  10. kouros

    kouros Platinum Record

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    There's a reason for this and I've mentioned it a few times for the ones who didn't pick it up or couldn't figure it out by lack of data. Ever wondered why this only happens towards foster911? Does he seem "shaken" by the way I show him things? No. Do you see me adressing anyone else's questions in the same tone? No.

    But.. when everyone else chimes in and asks me something politely, I am also polite. The problem is that most of them start with the "smartass question" posture and then things go downhill, even though I keep insisting for them to check things up in order to avoid a "dogmatic musical mind".
     
  11. kouros

    kouros Platinum Record

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    You can check for yourself when I say that my posts aren't about "what I say is what rules, what you were told is crap" but I always get these guys who read things totally out of context and that ignore "me talking to foster911" on purpose.

    I understand what you said in your other post and I agree with you. In the end, it's not worth it anyway... if people are in a fighting mood they are even less likely to think about anything that is said. Better to just ignore them.
     
  12. ClaudeBalls

    ClaudeBalls Producer

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    Yeah well to the uninitiated all this "Black Magick" theory stuff is intimidating and makes people act like jerks because they are insecure. And I guess some people are genuine jerks and aren't acting at all.

    To me most important thing about the modes is the "moods". When you are trying to incorporate the modes into your music toolkit it is important to understand the color/feeling that they provide. That is much more important to me to learn than how it relates back to a major scale.
     
  13. kouros

    kouros Platinum Record

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    Right on the money, I think I've also used that word to describe it.

    I haven't thought of it that way but now that you've mentioned it...

    Exactly the point I was trying to pass on but it looks like people only accept that kind of statements if they are just like yours.. "vague" and open. As soon as I write down some concepts on how to apply it or some intervals in numbers.. then I become "someone who knows less than the OP and should be studying that stuff". :dunno:
     
  14. ClaudeBalls

    ClaudeBalls Producer

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    Focus on the positive, ignore the rest. Music has always been a way to bring people of a like mind together. Or even change minds. I bet if we were all hanging out at a music store annoying the employees we would most likely get along great.

    The big question is was music more impactful/significant/expressive when a bigger percentage of the musician population was musically literate or is it better now when I think the average music theory knowledge is lower than it was in the past?
     
  15. kouros

    kouros Platinum Record

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    Well.. I would answer that with another question (sort of) :bleh:

    How do we connect all the great artistry and KNOWLEDGE (not information) of the past with the all the means available (technological and stylistic) that we have today?

    The traditional classical (or even jazz) school is dead, chocked on their own prejudices. People who don't learn in a formal way (classical conservatory for instance) either think that "some guy who's been learning the violin there for decades, he must know EVERYTHING about music" or that "those guys only learn recipes to make music, I don't need any theory". Both are wrong. Learning an instrument gives you primarily the ability to 1- play it and 2- sight read, nothing more unless you specifically have more than that included in your studies (analysis/composition for instance).

    Which means that in this generation we have:

    1 - people who think music theory is reading sheet music

    2 - people who think theory is harmful and will cut your creative freedom

    Both are TERRIBLY wrong.

    Now regarding your question and given what I said above, I think we are lucky if we have at least a few minds that think outside all these boxes and keep exploring ways of doing something that can be considered true art instead of rehashing the same old sound and licks on verse-chorus-verse structures in hope to get some money out of it.
     
  16. foster911

    foster911 Guest

    To me, kouros is another Jesus. I am just a bad follower. I am trying to correct my wrong assumptions that will take time I know. I need strong alternatives. Dear kouros is doing it I really appreciate him without any expectation. I have believed him but please give me some time to do that.

    You're my hero. Thanks so much!
     
  17. kouros

    kouros Platinum Record

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    Fuck foster, it took some time but you're finally acknowledging where you're standing, that is the first step for anything. "Wrong assumptions", that's it. Later on you'll find some "not so effective assumptions" in your head but don't worry, realizing that you have beliefs about music that make no sense, that's huge!! I am glad that my examples did that for you.

    I am not in a hurry and you're not supposed to believe anything so, I am not expecting immediate results. You should get a keyboard though, it would make things much easier for you instead of only using piano roll. It's hard to train your mind and link musical concepts to actual sounds when you have to draw everything instead of playing it. At this moment you're full of theory but lacking aural skills.. if you had a bit of those you wouldn't be asking half of the questions.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
  18. ClaudeBalls

    ClaudeBalls Producer

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    I watched a documentary on "Funk" and it made a very interesting point. After WW2 most of the population in the US lived in suburban areas in free standing homes with basements and garages. They also had the buying power to afford instruments and lessons. After the Reagan era a large part of the population left the suburbs and moved into apartments in the city. This meant that there were no longer places for kids to play music. Also americans have seen their buying power slashed and schools have eliminated music and art programs. I think this has had an impact on the type of music and the type of musician that exists now. It seems more music is made by a single individual in a situation that is compatible with living in close proximity to other people. When you don't need to communicate to other musicians literacy is less vital.
     
  19. kouros

    kouros Platinum Record

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    But.. you still have to "communicate with yourself", don't you? That's basically all I talk about here, not notation.

    Most of all, I think music theory's purpose is to connect your mind to sounds. Doesn't matter where you are (east, west..) or what do you want to call your intervals. I don't care if someone wants to call "C - Car", "D - Gas Station" and "E - Bar" as long as he is able to connect the sounds in his mind in a way that he know that the relative distance between Car and Gas Station is the same as Gas Station and Bar.

    I don't think that the "uni band" is the problem. We had that in the past and all those great composers didn't need any partners.

    In my opinion, the biggest "problem" is that music went from something "to please god" to something to "shake your booty and generate money".

    Even people who are more serious about music end up being influenced by music as an industry. That's why we sometimes have to stop and ask ourselves "Wait.. why am I writing this? Who am I writing this for? What's the impact I want to create on the listener?". If the answers are "make money, general public and 'get em to think I can make beats just like rapper X'", then you don't have much thought to do beyond that point... but, if you want to create something that's uniquely yours, then all those answers are not aligned with the statement you want to make.

    And what does all this has to do with theory? Theory will ultimately connect you with your musicality and give you the means to express yourself based on your own awareness and interpretation of everything around you.


    Ok people, give me crap now. :rofl:
     
  20. kouros

    kouros Platinum Record

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    Bottom line:

    If you don't work on yourself to create that conscious link between you and your musical awareness by somekind of theory, you wont be able to deal with the musical elements because you won't even notice them. Not being aware of something = that thing isn't a valid option for you.

    What happens if you don't create this link? You'll end up following what "sounds good to your ear", which 99% of the time will be stuff that you've already heard. Ever wondered why 99% of your friends who "play what they feel" always sound like they must feel exactly like someone else they usually listen to? Talk about coincidence..
     
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