Thanks, everyone. A lot to consider here and it'd take me many days to respond to each person's take.

To give some background I did a similar deal with Bill Laswell (a spoken word piece with extremely limited singing) and was awarded something astonishing within a week. Sent him the tracks and production notes and he came back with a piece that was solid. It cost me a pretty bloody penny but ultimately it was worth it. He spiced it up here and there, added his incomparable bass and mixed it superbly.

With the Sound B producer I made it extremely clear what I was wanting yet repeatedly what was sent back had elements missing altogether or not done accordong to my requests/directions. I am not in the habit of paying people for me to do more work that we've agreed they should be doing.

As for comments the 'original' is so bad he shouldn't have gone near it in a thousand years- I agree. If a piece doesn't appeal to you, decline it from the get go. Of course I checked out his profile, vetted some of his previous jobs which seemed passable. It was more the quality of discussions we had and shared admiration of certain producers that won me over.

Lesson learnt: in the age of the gig economy, people cut corners. You entrust them with golden rectangles of opportunity and end up with butchered pretzels.

PS The poll also helps me get some objectivity on how much of the fee I should cough up. So, trust me, I genuinely appreciate members' responces.
PPS the golden rectangle reference is tongue in cheek

 

Last edited: Feb 8, 2023

Bluntly - my mistake? Nah, don't accept this.
He accepted the job with extremely clear requests/directions as to what I wanted. If it was so bad, he should have declined or discussed with me how far he was prepared to go to improve the song.
These two versions above are not the final by the way.

 

But let's hear from Lee what he provided. Only the vocal recording with chords as playback? Or also instrumental recordings?

Hi MyF,
I'll post what I sent at the very start of the collaboration soon. Gimme a day or two. I sent him around 7 tracks to work with- vocals, bass, guitar, pads, strings, samples, percussion, conch shells.

 

The vocals and the instruments feel awkwardly disconnected in the mix. There's some strange reverb on the vocals. It doesn't make sense to me

BTW: You don't hav to ask us about the mix. It's your art, you have to feel comfartable with it, not us. And if you don't like it you have to articulate your feelings about the mix to the engineer.

 

I agree to a certain extent, but it's not a question of like or not like. It's more of a question of the does the guy deserve to get paid or not for the work he did or not.

Only time will tell, who knows.

 

Don't worry I very diplomatically commincated my feelings about the mix - repeatedly - to no avail until I ditched the diplomacy . AND the producer is Eng speaking so no language differences to get in the way

 

$500 US? Wow i need to raise my rates

 

Great analogy, C, but if you know this driver has taken a wrong turn and you keep telling him yet he just sticks to his weird destination - then it's time to get the mods involved and negotiate a partial refund.

 

Don't want to labour the point but... a few members requested to hear the original file sent to the producer so they could better understand the disagreement. Here is the original file. Bewarned - those that did not enjoy suffering the first audio post in this thread better save their ears for more suitable works in progress

For the gig I specifically requested

"a few variations of the guitar melody, some strings here and there (VST is completely fine of course) and heavy pitch correction of my voice (if its possible)"
to which the producer replied after listening

This is really good. I'm not just saying that …We can definitely turn this into something interesting. And your voice is fine actually . You need to sing with a little more confidence but I can help you with that. And I have many production techniques to make the vocal sound excellent , so don't worry about that."

and then I paid the fee to Soundbetter. After which the producer came back with a rough template

I made clear musical references as to what kind of piece I was seeking (Waits, Cohen, Damien Rice; production wise Laswell, Zazou, and Gilles Martin) and aiming for a mood of mystical wistfulness.

PS the producer's sales pitch of "many production rechniques to make the vocal sound excellent "consisted of a spattering of pitch correction, some Eno-like vox doubling and telling me to relax before recording my voice and positioning the mic above my mouth to avoid pops.

In peace, good taste and determination

 

I don't want to come across all Simon Cowell here but you've given this to a producer, not a miracle worker.

 

I got you completely but his words "And I have many production techniques to make the vocal sound excellent"
But you're right there was a long way to go to make it decent (and maybe decent would be miraculous). Yet he was clearly encouraging me. Live and learn as you watch the dog running off with your hands

 

"he said, he said, he said".....

Dude, you keep telling us what this producer said to you as if it's a fundamental rationale for your unhappiness and displeasure with how this worked out. Have you ever walked into a clothing store, tried on a pair of pants, and had the salesman tell you you're overweight and they look like crap, don't buy them??? OF COURSE NOT. They tell you how wonderful you look in the pair of pants they want to sell you.

These people are in business, which means they are in the habit and practice of attempting to separate you from your money. That's what business generally is, period. I don't know your age, but your comments here generally leave me with the impression you're probably old enough that you should already know this.

I said earlier on this thread that you made mistakes. You said you disagreed. In an earlier comment you said you listened to examples of this producer's work before you agreed to pay him. You characterized his productions as "passable". I'd say that's hardly a ringing endorsement. Yet you went ahead anyway because you liked what he had to say to you about music and productions... That was your call.

I don't know this company you're dealing with (you mention "Sound B") but assuming they're much like other places that do this sort of work they probably have you click on some agreements before you can proceed. Generally there's an arbitration clause. Part of that may include having to pay the cost of the arbitration if you lose. That could be very expensive! P.S. Based on the information you've provided here you will likely lose, a) because he provided samples of his work before starting (which didn't impress you that much), and b) because apparently this business with the producer went on for months during which time you could have tried to end it but instead you let it go on till you had a final 'product' in hand and then don't want to pay the guy. Not good.

It would be nice if they have a little bit of heart and reach some compromise with you on a fee, but they really don't have to. Like I said before, this was your mistake and you need to learn from it. You had it in your head you can turn lemons into lemonade by paying someone else to improve your skills, when that's something you need to do on your own and/or with music and voice teachers.

Yes, what you got from this guy is bullsh*t. Live and learn and move on. Good luck!

 

You sent him a mix and not tracks?

You keep sharing the final product when everyone is asking for the ingredients.

Do you have this as a multitrack because a full mix is useless to come to any conclusion about his mixing or production techniques. If you don't want to share the multitrack, that's fine but lets not waste any more time tasting a baked pie and wondering about the quality of the cook when everyone is asking what type and the quality of the meats and veg went into it.

 

BJ- briefly

• seems everyone's assuming I was after a grammy award winning song - "lemons to lemonade/miracles" etc. No, I wanted a demo I could give to other musicans /singers for them to record based on ..wait for it .. their attraction to the atmosphere of the piece, it s musical posibilities and its lyrics.
• Site's name: Soundbetter ( This thread stems from another where I spelt out the site clearly and I do mention it up above eg and then I paid the fee to Soundbetter)
• Live and learn- You bet. The site seemed legit. The guy had five stars rating based on 153 Reviews (86 Verified). So, perhsps the site is corrupt as F($5$#
• I am taking SOME responsibility - hence my openness to people's take on the situation. And as I said above "Live and learn".
• the site has admin who adjudicate a dispute like this- no fee has been mentioned

JM

• I sent tracks
• I already appreciate the time people have spent listening and commenting on this. I thought it presumptous to up individual tracks and expect people to vet them. I don't know about everyone asking for the multitracks. You and BJ are the members who replied to my last audio posts so it seems like lot of work /time to labour a point (dead horse flogged). I thought hearing the mixed germ of Scrape and the producer's first responce would be sufficient for people to get the general idea.
• Unless a suitable number of ASx members genuinely want to get a clearer picture of what opportunites are out there for their skills when a 'producer' like this is on the prowl, then yeah I'll up the files. Otherwise, I've gotten a pretty good idea of what members think of the situation via the poll. I'm sure we all have busy lives with lots of music and songs to attend to.

So, for me, it's a wrap.
Again, thanks for people's time and honesty.
On the sunny side of the sleet, I've met some members who are really keen to develop Jig and Scrape. So, hand on heart, all this was far from a waste of time.
Keep the flag flying

 

Last edited: Feb 13, 2023

A little late to the party...you didn't need to send your track to someone and spend 500 smackers as a reference just to give musicians the atmosphere you wish them to convey for your song. That in my mind is either your job or whoever wears the hat of producer (not the silly now common usage that 14 year olds call themselves). Your vision and explanation of the song needs be directed at the players. Mixing is done afterwards and mastering after that. 500 bucks ill spent.

 

As you wish, I am not going to flog a dead hose as you say. Everyone who mentioned "source material" was mentioning the actual multi-tracks. However I know for some people it's a hard thing to do as it is akin to being naked in front of strangers, and some human beings are more comfortable with nudity than others.

On your second point I agree 100%, it's better to move on than pick at a scab especially in art when we as humans start to feel the we have the answer we need. There is not need to pick at wound, just let it scar and become a part of you.

Best of luck and keep on being you. You songs have an honest and human quality aside from timing I personally wouldn't really touch anything else.

Cheers.

 

His mix sounds better. Proof in itself that you got your money's worth.

Either that. or your mix sounds dire. He took a problem you offered him and solved it, everything sounds distinct and in place, there are a few issues with timing he could have gone the extra mile on for the price, but yes he definitely improved your work.

 

Trevor Horn undoubtedly would have done a better job than this guy but

a) he would have charged you 50,000
B) he would have ditched and then re-recorded all of your source material. It would have hit your brief but it would be his song not yours.

 

Define what acceptable means to you. Based on the unstable performance of the recording, the result is definitely acceptable. Overall, I find the whole mix a bit flat (which is a matter of prior agreement), but overall the result is stylistically and technically okay for the material you provided him/her.

There's a reason for the saying "shit in, shit out."

 

Last edited: Feb 13, 2023