good point, as there's ways compression can be done transparently, and i don't think squashed even applies here, if you wanna hear squashed you need not ask friend

 

It's exactly what I've done for this second trial, I put 2 independant stereo enhancers / wideners on the piano and the whole drums buss, but perhaps I was too shy / discrete on it, should I increase the settings?

You're right for what I'm concerned, as said earlier I'm not really at ease with compressors; presets tend to be overly exaggerated and tend to squash the natural dynamic of voice and instruments, I've not yet found the perfect nuance / balance to make instruments sound as natural and rich as when I hear them played directly in front of me.

 

When it comes to stereo sources yeah sure, but delete the one on drum buss, and put it on overheads, leave the mono sources untouched, just to avoid any sort of phase issues.

and beside using just widener, pan it left and right to achieve a wider mix.

 

I was actually talking about MrLyannMusic's mix in his first post. But yeah, we tend to grab for compressors when totally unnecessary.

Just listened to yours, I like your idea of opening it up! The highmids/highs seem very prominent though, is there somekind of exciter going on on the mix? Especially the cymbals can get very washy.

 

Funny, it was my first impression when I heard @MrLyannMusic mix, but listening to the original stems I can say these exaggerated highs are there since the origin, the mikes used have the neat tendency to boost the harmonics far too much for my taste.

If there is an enhancement, the culprit is the choice of microphones used to capture the live instruments.

EDIT: to give you an idea on how IMAHO an acoustic kit should sound, please listen on the sister site the audio demos of the "Modern Funk Kit" (here is the official page).

I never heard about this vendor, but I can say that these guys know exactly how to capture real drums played by real drummers!

It reminds me some studio sessions I had the chance to participate, with totally unknown, local, but actually talented musicians.

Even the room ambiance is perfect! These sounds can be punchy, but there's nothing there that aggresses your ears, the HiHat is exactly at its place, it never dominates, the only instruments here that dominates is the different snares used, but it's totally coherent because it's a funk oriented sample library.

With sounds like that, you could even add tons of reverbs, they'll never sound muddy.

Now, comparing this with the original stems from Lewitt... How could I say?

Perhaps it's voluntary, they give us shitty recordings so that only the very "best of the best" mixers can shine?

 

Last edited: Aug 3, 2021

Pretty cool indeed! I think you will also like Decades from Toontrack. Very natural vibe.

 

Thank you for the tip, very nice Jazz kit indeed!

What I appreciate with the jazz drummers in general, is that they never try to tame the resonances, the sustain part of the instruments, the result is always very natural. But traditional Jazz music is made in a way that let the instruments "breeze", there is always a lot of space between the piano, the bass and the drums, because when (for example) one musician start improvising her/his solo, the other musicians always tries to be very discrete, to let all the field of expression possible to the soloist.

But it's never (or rarely) the case in Pop or Rock music, where what is sought after is what I call "the ensemble effect", where all the parts playing together give a lot of intensity to "carry", to "boost" the singer or the soloist.

It's why in Pop/Rock the drummers always try to shortened their sounds (except, of course for everything cymbals-related) using for example circles of plastic (muffs) on the snare, pieces of fabric (or synthetic moss) into the Bass Drum (kick) and even adhesive tapes on the toms! The goal here is to obtain as clean attacks as possible, to avoid confusion and muddiness. The precision here is the key.

What I love, listening to the demos in the site you indicated, is the ride cymbal!

The ride cymbal, when recorded correctly, must normally sounds like a "Tiiing!" or a "Tsssing!" depending on where exactly on the surface of the instrument the musician is hitting: if the drummer plays on the extremities (the border) of the cymbal, the sound produced is like a "Tsssiiing!". If the musician plays on the top center of the circle, it sounds more like a bell: "Tiiinggg!".

Normally, this instrument is never prominent, most of the time very discrete, but it allows the drummer to play very complex (poly-) rhythmic parts (it's what I like with human drummers: they are able to play on their cymbals a lot of nuances and rapid notes impossible to really reproduce with a machine, even the most sophisticated one).

The problem I have with this Lewitt stems, is that no percussion instrument sounds like it should! The ride cymbal, for example, sounds more like a crash cymbal! The HiHat... no need to add a word, you know what I think about it...

Every other drums is at the same "level" in this recording: messy, muddy and saturated. I think the Lewitt guys are just mocking us!

I understand now why some producers, in some cases (low budget prods mainly), replace all the acoustic drum sounds by sampled ones... It sure is a radical move, but sometimes, when nothing works as expected, I think they simply have no other choice.

 

That sound is quite common for vintage +air microphones because of tape and how it tape frequency response dulls highs. Lewitt most likely just cloned some vintage mics, but there is one thing that seems to be different between Lewitt's mic and the gold standards of yester year there is huge a 4K-5K bump on all their air microphones and not that much air TBH. On some critical listening in isolation of the individual drum tracks I can hear that 4K-5K hump but not much else as things sound like they start to fall off after about 8.5K-10K and is done by 15K-16K which what most mid range dynamic mic do anyway some of them without that huge presence boost.

Not really much time or will to dig into if further, but if the weekend comes around and people are still dissecting this thing, I might join in the fun. Otherwise it is what it is, it sounds serviceable on a precursory listen, but I can't really say that with total confidence as I haven't tried to actually mix it. The song itself is a bit staid, appropriative, derivative and boring which makes it harder to get motivated to explore it thoroughly. About the only interesting aspect of it are the guitar tone off that amp even though it sounds a bit boxy and band filtered it does have a nice retro vibe.

The rest of problem with the drum recording is just the drummer being sub-optimal for the most part and the recording engineer / producer is also complicit for not asking for a better performance.

 

If you ask me i think they have done it on purpose, it is a contest after all, they probably know anyone can mix a decent recording, but it takes skill to cut through a badly recorded song, i have done some research, it turns out this is a remix they made of one of their original songs, specefically for this event, they could have used their original take if they wanted to, despite not releasing info on what mics were used on the drum recording contrary of the rest of the elements which they do specifiy in a file found when you download the stems...

i personally suggest you join in the fun, you may learn something after all.

 

Agree with both of you, and also I'm curious to hear what another skilled mixer (more skilled than me anyway!) can do with these approximate stem.

So don't hesitate, @JMOUTTON, if ever you have time to waste, this way we could have two reference mixes (the one from Mr Lyann + yours) to compare with my possible future trial (if I feel I can do better than my first proposals and really improve in quality, which is, for the moment, not the case...).

All of this could constitute a great training for the next mix challenge (if I dare to participate)! Now that we have understood the philosophy of these guys (always introduce difficulties, with bleeding, noisy and saturated stems, etc...).

Last thing I attempted: use Accusonus Drumatom to tame some resonances and bleedings on the drums, but I'm far from convinced by this proggie: I found it not very efficient on these tracks especially and it haves the tendency to cut too many notes / hits / etc...

You have of course the button "Fine Tune" to lesser this embarrassing effect, but the result is far from being satisfying...

- - - -

EDIT: Finally, I feel an improvement! I used Ozone 9 On the two stereo Drum stems: "Overheads" (the 2 mikes are placed above the drum kit, for what I saw: generally I meter above the drummer, but it could vary depending of many factors and choices). Generally, Overheads tend to favor / enhance everything cymbals-related (Ride, Crash and of course HiHat), but is also nice to give a subtle prominence on the higher harmonics of the snare.

And also the "Drum Room" stem (here generally 2 mikes are placed in front of the drums, many orientations / Heights / distances between right and left mikes are possible, the goal is to reconstitute the impression that you could have if you were actually listening the drummer in face of the instrument).

I choose this chain inside Ozone 9: EQ -> Maximizer -> Vintage Tape -> Vintage Limiter and Master Rebalance.

Then I used RX 8: I used only the module "De-reverb" that is surprisingly very efficient, I was able to decrease the natural reverb of the room (here I supposed they used volontary bad room conditions, this "resonance" is very anoying in all the drum tracks...)

===> Here is the result of this treatment: In this file, you will find only the two drum stems mentioned.
...What do you think guys?

Now step two: on the vocal stem, there is one mouth click, at one place only. I thought: why this mouth noise is at this place and not elsewhere? IMAHO it must be a voluntary trap for aspiring candidates....

 

Last edited: Aug 5, 2021

Update:

After the two stereo drum stems you'll find above,

Here is the result of my work on the Vocal stem (only):

With RX8: Denoise, De-click, "De-saturate", De-ess, and Breath control

With Ozone: EQ > Maximizer > Vintage Limiter > Master Rebalance.
Here I tried to find the perfect compromise with the EQ, I diminished the low mediums, without messing up with the lows, I think have preserved the initial lows but removed the extreme lows above 100hz to remove the plosives, that I found problematic in this case.

If you want / can you're welcome to test these three separate stems, and to tell me if they're clearer, a little better, or not?

If you find them accorded to your taste, you can of course use them instead of the original ones on your own mix, in fact I would be pleased if you do so.

 

Whats up. I needed something to do so I did a mix as well.

https://we.tl/t-z63YIPDYX7

 

my opinion after listening for a few seconds, op mix has:

too much tape hiss
too much saturation
too much compression
not enough space

i think effects are used to try to "polish" the mix
the mix should sound so good that it doesn't need polishing.
in most cases, if you hear the effect then it's wrong. you should hear the expression of the song first.
for example, if the bassline is a synth at a rave, then put it through a trance gate maybe, then the effect is the instrument.
otherwise, the instruments should fit together to support the arrangement, and the effects should be below the instrument level, or at least not be more prominent than the most subtle expressions in the intrument voices.

turn down the tape hiss so that you can't hear it while there are even so much as reverb tails.
turn down the saturation from 100% down to so low that you only start to hear it. all it does is add perceived gain that you're compressing later anyway, and when you compress you're decreasing the amount of space
space can be enhanced by reverb, but unless one of the instruments in the band is a reverb, then it should take no attention away from any of the pieces of the arrangement, unless it's a special effect.

i know some of these effects are pricey so you might want to show them off, but effects most of the time are more dangerous than helpful because it's easy to overuse them and take attention from the composition and arrangement. effects should support, not distract.

 

Hey, @thebeatsareill, welcome to you and your mix!

Nice idea, because listening to all these mixes I try to learn a little more the art of mixing (I'm really a noob in this matter).

Here's what I can say / think about yours:

- The piano have a lot of dropouts in the sound, perhaps because of a noise gate set a little too high? Or for another reason I dunno?

- Congratulations on the voice, the sound is very clear! Perfect for me, what's the treatment you used?... Oh, or perhaps have you used the stem I proposed above? If it's the case, I'm very honored.

- To the end, you used a saturation on the bass, personally I didn't found it appropriate, considering the retro style of the song, and far too aggressive for my taste, but of course I can very well be completely wrong about it!

- The FX used on the guitar stems is a pretty good idea!

Thank you for your nice share!

 

Last edited: Aug 5, 2021

@Amore_de_la_Vida
Thank you for the feedback.
After listening again I hear what you hear on the piano. It is most likely due to side chaining the bass to the melody bus, which was done in an effort to cut the bass through a little more.
Thanks for the congrats on the vocal. I kept it simple with a parametric eq cutting the lows, then I used Nectar (let it analyze and tweaked from there).
I did add saturation to the bass which is a result of me making hip hop all the time and thinking that it was a little too dry for my taste. I used Devil-Loc. To be honest I don't mix much music like this, so knowing what is appropriate was a guessing game.
I had the guitars and piano routed seperately for eq, then I bussed them together and used that Arturia eternity delay on some preset that sounded good and turned it down to about 10%

 

I like this thread. We should do more mixing feedback chains like this

 

@thebeatsareill Good idea to use nectar, I'd never thought about that! The result is really clear and neat, exactly how I like.

For this particular style of song (retro-60's), you have to be very cautious on the bass. Of course you can render it thicker or louder (not too much tho!), but you have to avoid all form of saturation, if of course you wanna stay in the mood! All that is also a question of taste of course...

Since the beginning this topic was very interesting for me and appeared at a times where i really try to improve my skill in the goal to mix my own compositions... I'm not there yet!

And it gives me the desire to participate to the next Lewitt mix contest, when they'll relaunch it, probably next year.

 

Last edited: Aug 5, 2021

I appreciate the time you took to write this, but let me try to point things out,

First of all the hiss isn't from the tape, like at all, it is from a pre-amp plugin i used ti give some roundness to an element, i tried to take it out and i did, but later on i found that i actually liked and it gave something to the whole mix, the idea behind all this is to "get away" from clean mixes, we live in a digital world where everything is so clean at some point it became sterile, so everything i did was to avoid that path.

i can tell you're not used to listeing to old recording, old song or sold styles, as those have plenty of what would you call tape hiss, tape saturation and tape compression, and from that alone i can be sure that i succesed i suggest you take the time to revisit the old era where everything had a soul, break away from the crystal clear edm, and explore other genra and other styles, Clean mixes have their upsides, but we shoudn't limit ourselves.

No offense friend but i'm really trying to get my head around this one, mix engineers don't always get the luxury of working with perfect materials, isn't our job to try to polish and try to get to the best version using any means nessacary at our disposal? or some techniques are allowed an others are not? still baffeled there, but i'd love to hear a more detailed explination, after you listen to the whole song

You amaze me friend, some affects are meant to be heard, and put under the spotlight, i mean i agree that compression most of the time should be transparent sure, but sometimes that might not be the case, either because of that particular case or because of the mix engineer's decision...

unfortunately this is not a synth, nor a trance gate is required, again instruments should fit together but it is rare than an element will fall into place on it's own and without processing... the rest i'd love to hear you explain in details friend...

This starts to sound more a taste than a feedback, information that i am already aware of, one legitimate question thought, have you ever actually worked on dynamic-sensetive elements, sometime compromises have to be taken in order to acheive a better mix as a whole...

i'll give you the same advice as my now close friend @Amore_de_la_Vida , please take the time to download the stems, mix it to your liking, share it and we will give you our feedback based on our taste, so we can have more fun

in all seriousness though i appreciate the time you took to write your reply!

 

Yeah If I could learn from others here about mixing and share my knowledge as well I might not be so angry all the time....

I truly appreciate the feedback @Amore_de_la_Vida

 

If you do a mix and request a honest, feedback i'll give you an honest productive one that you can actually use to better yourself and your mix, but some choices taken have reasons behind them, and dismissing them just because you do not agree with them is not the right move if you ask me.