Hi,

I realized that in gain staging, a gain/utility plugin should be used before the plugin chain. So, can I continue to use this gain plugin I put at the beginning of the chain to adjust the volume of the elements in the song while mixing, or should I use the faders that daw has?

 

Faders are usually post processing, pre-fader, meaning that unless you've changed the default in a DAW that allows you to put plugins post fader then you are not changing the level going into the plugins with the channel fader.

Same DAWs have a channel gain function at the top, but most if not all have clip gain, unless you of course prefer a gain utility plugin in the actual chain for some reason.

 

Gain-staging means healthy gain/volume at ALL STAGES. That means both in gain (input) and volume (output).
A gain is pre processing and volume is post processing, as mentioned above.

In the digital domain, which in most cases are 32bit FP (1528db of DR), you can use a gain plugin on the first slot (or the channels gain knob, if it has such). BUT...if your audio files (and their waveforms) are "gain-staged" and have peaks under 0dBFS you don't even have to use the channel/plugin gain.

It seems to me that you are not 100% on gain-staging, but I could be wrong.

 

Last edited: Jun 19, 2021

Only if the level of source deviates by a too large amount for the plugins to work best - which isn't the case for digital compressors, EQs, sends, ...

Additionally, as already mentioned, you only need a leveling plugin if the the other plugins don't have an adjustable input and output.

For mixing the levels of channles you use the faders, ofc.

 

OP can set the initial level in the instrument/sampler/synth level knob, not even touching the daw faders, or using any other dynamic/leveling plugins after in the chain. obvs you can do that, use other plugins, but just mentioning level wise. allow my bad english.

 

Fruity Balance!

 

do your static mix with pre-fader, carry on with post fader.

 

If your using analog modelled plugins then you should gain stage before each (-18dBFS) with a gain plugin to ensure they behave as expected - and then drive harder if you want to change the sonic character. (the characteristics of hardware changes with differences in input voltage - it’s why we use modelled plugins.)

 

Myth. So far I couldn't find a single plugin (AA Aqua and Nebula included) where this was really necessary.
I'd appreciate if someone could show me at least one plugin where you have to do this.

 

I was under the impression that gain staging is in the earliest part of the entire process, where you adjust the level(s) of each track's volume pre-insert(s), to get a decent signal-to-noise ratio without unwanted distortion. Faders are used at the mix level, for balancing the levels of all the tracks in the mix. The gain-staging then after that point is more gain monitoring on the stereo out bus in amplitude.
Maybe I;ve been doing it wrong if not.... :-|

 

For me I "at times" for "certain" situations would measured (-12dBFS MAX) sending out from DAW to my USOLO110 to prevent coloration or un controlled Overdrive.
But That only apply if the output was set to LINE where i do want that color and drive but in control of it.

 

All of the UAD analog modelled plugins. Change its gain and listen to the difference in harmonics and transient behaviour (particularly on tube gear).

The fact is the sonic character and behaviour of analog hardware changes with the input voltage. Increased input voltages result in harmonic changes and differences in transient behaviour.

It’s why we and every studio in the planet, along with all audio equipment manufacturers use reference levels for audio. There are many, many books on the subject alongside numerous scientific papers on reference levels (0 VU, -10dBv, +4dBu) that trump what you have “personally” found.

Analog modelled software (by its very definition) behaves the same otherwise it’s not very well modelled.

The reference of -18dBFS in the DAW is considered 0VU (as defined and calibrated by SSL, Manley, Neve etc).

Send an email to Dave leBolt (a lead designer on ProTools and now codes with UAD) and he’ll confirm that any analog modelled plugin should behave differently depending on its input gain. I’ve held long conversations with him about it.

 

True.
In digital... only if you’re using analogue modeling, and if your sure that the developer recommends a specific level.
Otherwise for the rest of the digital plugins just use your ears .and common sense.
Most, (not all) of this ‘gain stagging’ babble in digital domain is nonsense

 

Not sure if this is part of "gain staging" - but for me the only plug-in I've noticed that doesn't like too much input is Neural DSP amps - nasty clicks, so now I have a habit of keeping the guitar input to around -18db, no matter what and I must say it feels like the mixing is A LOT easier as a result, although that may just be the practice catching up with me.

and Fabfilter Timeless 3 just hisses and opens up a window in your browser if pushed too hard

 

Last edited: Jun 19, 2021

-18dB has it's advantages beyond analog emulations too. If you're routing too many signals to a bus you may be clipping the input without noticing if you use a higher reference level and be forced to push them faders lower than my IQ. That said, gainstaging should always be about getting the signal loud enough so you can work confortably with it without clipping (unless you want to clip, then clip). This clearly can mean different things in different scenarios. Check your meters, read plugin manuals, apply sosig fatner as much as you can, and everything will be fine.

 

senseless discussion imho since leveling plugins make life easier in any case and no disadvantage discernible.

 

I wouldn't like to overdrive this neither https://www.delonghi.com/en-au/prod...kers/nespresso-system/en110bsolo---0132191093

Ah, these I can't test.

Correct, I've never questioned this because I know it out of experience, but that's not the topic here.

That's bad news for all the plugins I've tested.

Firstly, it's not a definition but a calibration and secondly, neither SSL nor Manley or Neve are its origin.

Firstly, should doesn't mean they do. Secondly, even if they do, who's saying this is necessary? Why should I adjust all audio signals to a specific level below 0dB FS (for the sake of not clipping 16bit)??? I have never done this and probably will never. And so far no one complained.

Err, for sure only for analogue modelling pluggies. These were exactly which I tested and all of them failed (do you know what the meters in Waves CLA-2A and stuff are really showing?).

I've even clipped their input without any noticable clicking.

I need to look if I still have a screenshot but you can clip, aka have a level above 0dB FS at 0VU with percussions. So this 'limit' doesn't help.

That's were this myth is coming from.

Sure, additional useless work.

 

I’ve explained why in this thread. This is a profession and these details matter, greatly. They make a difference to the sound, and to simply say “no one has complained” is a terrible attitude.

If you’ve really worked with serious hardware I shouldn’t need to explain this. You would know it.

There’s a saying that bees shouldn’t waste their time explaining to flies why honey is better than shit. So I’ll leave you to your meanderings and guesswork.

 

No, gain-staging involves all stages. From input gain on a mic to the true peak of a mastered song (and all the channels, busses, groups and instances of hardware and software plugins inbetween).