Thanks for the crazy, Massive and interesting resource..

But yeah, saying Lagrene or Django didn't knew their stuff..
I guess they were just guitar noobs who learnt the CAGED system,
and then magically catapulted themselves into stardom..


Manouche is quite systematic, true,
and might not be the Broadest all encompasing style..

But it's by no means a Beginners thing,
and they Excel at using/applying Harmonic/Melodic minor and Diminished scales/harmonies,
and even more exotic Balkan influenced stuff like Hungarian scales and so on..

 

On reading his post - I think you might have misread that - I think he was being sarcastic and also making a point. There are a lot of great players in the world who cannot read a note of music and are completely ear trained like Tommy Emmanuel and I believe his point was much the same. That is, if you can hear it, then knowing mathematically what it is they are playing will not make any difference to their skills. Like just because someone learned a different way does not make them any less or any more in the scheme of music. I know musicians with incredible music theory knowledge who are very ordinary musicians and vice-versa.

Birelli and Django had incredible knowledge and skills but it did not come directly from reading music or a batch of theory is his point. Any skilled musician doing gigs will keep getting better and better and yes, the term of learning on the gig is a very real thing too. If you have a lot of gigs, definitely. People with incredible ears and matching skills can adapt to almost any situation and fit in - the main exception being a pure sight-reading gig. Some musicologists I know at various Universities would run rings around me and anyone here in pure theory because that is their life's work, but I'd never book them for a gig.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2021

Well, yes and no..

First I don't think this is the Truest and most Comprehensive, respectful or intelligent statement:
"they can not play interesting stuff , poor them !"

And then, sure,
just like Allan Holdsworth developed his own harmonic system based on sheer Empirical practice,
and his personal and crazy point of view..

This guys might have worked with a more hands-on/empirical approach..

But even if they didn't stick to the Orthodox point of view, or didn't have a Name for it,
they surely Knew what they were doing, and they applied it Correctly and Consistently.

I wouldn't diminish their knowledge just because of that possibility,
but in reality -> we don't know..

We don't know this persons and we shouldn't assume things like that,
specially considering they worked closely with some of the most respected and cultured musicians ever to exist.

Do you think Stephane Grappelli didn't knew theory/harmony,
and didn't talk about it with Django when they were working so Closely together?

Lagrene has worked/performed with Pastorius and Gil Evans, and has been on a high plateau for decades,
I'm pretty sure he's not an illiterate braying ignorant..


It would be different if you talked about the Early Paco de Lucia tho,
he surely was an Expert of the whole Flamenco tradition, and that requires Decades of intense Study/practice..

But it wasn't until much later when he worked with Dimeola,
that he made the push towards more regular orthodox theoretic/harmonic study..

And that's only possible because Trad. Flamenco is such a Unique and independently developed style,
which didn't really need to comply or be understood by traditional/regular ways of musical understanding/thinking, at all.

Manouche on the other hand is a much more "regular" style of music,
and it had a big influence from Swing/Jazz and other styles/concepts from Folk, Balkan music etc..


-Also things are not entirely Black or White, there's an infinite spectrum in between.

It's not like, you're either a Blind Donkey who plays by solely ear/instinct,
or you're an All Knowing orthodox academic theorist.

There's a whole spectrum in the middle, where one might know some concepts, but not others.
But still they're musicians who work and deal with music, and other musicians..

So they surely know what Chords and Scales are,
even if they don't have the broadest full spectrum theoretical/harmonic knowledge.


Also reading music Score is a separate skill,
which doesn't make you be any more knowledgeable about Theory and Harmony, at all.

And that's why there's so many Child-geniuses who can play classical piano or violins like Monsters.
They know how to follow Instructions on a sheet of paper, but they probably don't know and don't understand anything about Harmony.

It takes years of study/exposure, and a certain degree of intelligence and maturity to be able to understand it.
And that only comes with age.


Maybe you could work more easily with a musician who can read score,
if you worked with Scores in the first place.

But not everyone does it this way,
and I'm telling you, in Modern or Jazz influenced styles like Manouche it's almost unnecessary,
beyond the basic Chord Chart reading and whatnot.

 

Last edited: Jun 12, 2021

I read your post and I do not think like that.
Making a push towards anything is? - A choice. Choosing a life path is different for each of us. What path Paco chose is different for someone else. He was technically already accomplished before he did. Unique styles are wonderful and I agree having respect for their uniqueness is paramount.

A lot of people you have mentioned I actually know or knew. I have seen Tommy Emmanuel jam with Jaco at the Manzil Room in Sydney, Australia and he does not read a note and kept up just fine. I have been a pro player for 40 years and you assumed I do not know or knew any of the people you mentioned and you'd be very wrong. It's about what comes out, not what goes in and it always has been and always will be.
Some of my friends in the USA are on DiMeola's CD's and you'd be surprised that he's not the be all and end all.
You want to see how good someone is? Put them on a stage with a sight unseen chart and get them to lug the tune telling them no chords. I can and so can the people I play with and I'm very selective.
I can also read well by the way.
Theory won't save you, your ears will.

 

I don't have a single Dimeola CD, and I don't care about him..

But even if he's a cocky egomaniac,
I'm sure he's an absolute Expert of his craft, of Guitar technique and Music Theory and Harmony.
And I can surely Respect that!


And yeah read my updated previous post,
I completely disagree on the score sight reading topic.

Sight reading a score doesn't make you any more knowledgeable about theory/harmony,
or a better musician in any other aspect/sense, other than -> in sight reading score.

 

Sure but if you know everything behind it down to the most detailed Maqamat scales and obtuse scales - it does.
And - if you cannot play them without thinking twice about them (I can and so can my peers) then it's really not worth much at all.
Theory is only of any use if you can play and absorb what you learn. The point is to put it into practice and that's been Gospel in every style for centuries.
The only people I know who say otherwise are musicologists who cannot play what they know.

 

Would you please post a YT video that supports your idea? Not a simple experimental but a real one. A western micro-tonal piece that beats Equal Temperament, with all great finesse. I lay stress on non-experimental, western and finesse. Please do it...

 

"Sarcastic", me ? Never ! Scales VS Django and Bireli ? Scales win ! Why ? Because scales was ther before Django and Bireli , and they will be there also after . The absolute proof is that Django is not ther anymore, but the scales he used are still here ! It is really a time to throw out all of the players from the music scene, and to only keep theoricians that discuss about scales, because that's the real thing ! Futur of music is simple : 1 Choose a scale, or mix a few . 2 Put it in good program based on the latest AI. 3 Press on the button. 4 Thats'it, ur done !

 

What are you talking about? I didn't talk about any microtonality in my post, only mentioned that Augmented hexatonic is maximally even only in 9 ET. The list of equal divisions that support augmented temperament and have symmetrical chords is 3-6-9-12-15-18 etc.
Edit: and there is plenty of microtonal pop music on youtube from India, Turkey, Arabic countries etc, search for something you like, if you are interested in this, I don't see how any of this has anything to do with what I said.

 

Yes, I know but I want microtonal music with western flavor. If you know any of them please post a link.

 

Well, I agree with you, this is not comprehensive, respectful or intelligent statement, it is sarcastic and ironic. Why ? Because i feel that way this thread does not deserve anything else than sarcasm and irony. That is why i posted a link to hundreds of scales on YT, with all the BS i wrote. I will not go on this discussion, i wanted to give a link to some information just to show that this information is available eveywhere.
It is just information about scale formulas. Information about music , how and what to practice and study can not be reduced to learning scale formulas. But if it pleases some people to think that that is the hip stuff and dig it, it does not bother me, i do not play music with such people,
so simple as that .

 

If you seriously want to know Foster and are not trolling, google The Huygens-Fokker foundation.
They are the foremost experts respected worldwide since the 1960s. Nobody here comes close. They only think they are.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2021

That's is relatively simple.
Play the major scale (or any scale) on an acoustic guitar in a room with temperature of 15°C.
Repeat the process, but now the room temperature should be around 35°C, high moist.
Blend the two recorded signals and then you'll have it.

 

That's it

 

You can check some of Jacob Collier's work . Also find a lot of info about this available on YT and other places

 

Western music was microtonal until very modern times, so basically listen to any pre-20/mid19th century popular classical work, labeled as HIP (historically informed performance), if you are after the real Western flavour...
While there exists stuff like modern jazz played by Oriental musicians it's neither strict jazz, nor maqam. Check for example on spotify Tarek Yamani, I have heard at least several very good jazz pieces featuring 1/4 tones by him, .
Check also youtube user Zhea Erose, it's mostly ambient/vocal intonations based music, completely not my type, but many people like it on microtonal reddit forum.
Also, there are plenty of hits that sample obscure Bollywood soundtracks or Orientalish pop songs. On top of my mind - Chemical brothers, Britney Spears, Black Eyed Peas and at least several RNB/hip-hop songs from like 15-20 years ago had plenty of radio play? Does this pass for Western music?
Hm, I remembered another recent artist that I enjoyed, it is electronic music - check: Sevish - Droplet, or Gleam, or Desert island rain (even if the synth sound this guy uses are super cheesy).

 

Fair enough. There are lots of people who are deep into mythos and mystification over myriads of subjects and that suffices for them.
Some others are into investing their effort into understanding those.
Music making vs theory exemplifies that beautifully.
Just pick your poison and happily join your condescending peers.

 

OK, but what happens you boil some eggs during this time ? What happens to the major scale ?

 

The answer remains to be found, for those inclined to such rationale.

 

probably something like this (btw, it is theoretically possible to create piano timbre in something like Pianoteq that won't clash so much, some guy even created real acoustic pianos that sound good only in whole tone scale and 8 equal, it would be cool, if someone samples them at some point, it sounds a little like piano/bell hybrid):