"...They weren't thinking about it..."

"...most people improvising do not think about what they are going to play..."

" Once they are familiar with the changes, they tend to stop thinking about it."

" So all the scale theory in the world in that scenario will only make someone who trys to play and think flounder aimlessly. An interactive player who learned their scales decades prior who does not think and bounces off their surroundings will flourish. Music is about what comes out audibly and is what sells, not what is written on a piece of paper, that is all purely academic and has its place, in academia. People do not listen to theory they read it and/or absorb it, they listen to audio and that is a given. "


Isn't all that what I just previously stated? The way you put it is confusing (to me), like agreeing to disagreeing.

What I'm proposing is neither an ultimate solution, nor some sort of new dogma. Is just an attempt of mine to point out the skein where most of the orthodox and unorthodox musical approaches may derive from.

Everything in music it is, it is not, or could be something else, all at same time. If you don't commit to organize your findings, all you'll be able to do is to get frustrated and lost within the vastness of possibilities.

It is just as on the famous case PhD vs Coltrane you've mentioned: both were proficient at their own fields but, more importantly, loved the same, had the notion of how important that was to their own existence but, looked at it through different lenses.

I'm focusing on trying to provide a reference for those who are still building their own, but got stuck on the way due to the formal music educational method. In other words, sharing what I would've liked to know when I found myself on the same situation.

Afterall, if you will, tell me back what is your understanding about the content and perspectives I've presented so far. I tend to believe that it could turn out to be a lot more productive, for everyone. Thanks beforehand.

 

Food for thought :

 

Food for the soul :

 

Some more :

 

I learned much of what you are saying two decades ago. Do you have access to publish your ideas in academic journals or facilities to access University libraries and subsequent academic forums? They're available for academics through a variety of Universities because that is where this belongs.

I do not get frustrated over this because I know it intimately. I find it interesting globally lately how many people find the need to spout what they have learned. If you have truly learned it then you have no need to talk about it, you just know it and you do it through practice; or, if academic you have it published in a journal. As for me if I had the inclination to spout degrees, or, to point to dissertations that demonstrate a large aptitude for organisation of data and information, I could but I choose not to. After playing for decades as do my peers, we know those who can, do and those who cannot, talk about it.

You change one note in any scale and you change all the harmonic possibilities. This has been known for centuries. What you are putting forward is nothing new. Are you Jaq or MMJ? It certainly seems like it, because the performance of music is the goal. The theory is nothing without the performance. This has also been known as far and further back than Bach.

Demonstrating through your own performance examples as a teacher always carries more weight. Try that.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2021

You've just confirmed my suspicion. You're that Michelangelo in love with the chisel. No time or interest in this type of conversation. Have a good one.

 

You have confirmed my suspicions that you cannot walk your talk.
Have a good one.

 

Start your own thread and walk your talk on that (prove it).

 

You could just ask any of the two moderators. They won't give you my name because both Olymoon and No Avenger have been asked not to and they wouldn't anyway. But I am confident they will tell you I am what I represent myself as. They have seen my pieces of paper and know who I have played with, and have heard some of my music. I do not need to prove it. However, as I said clearly, I do not believe you are. You wouldn't have a thread like this if you did on a forum like this. It would be on an academic site.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2021

I said prove me wrong, not prove what you think you are. Inteso? Capisci?

 

Je comprenez pas - PM me your qualifications and music because who are you for me to prove anything to? I gave you a path for you to find out but you seem to lack the intestinal fortitude to contact any of the moderators. I keep my identity to myself for a good reason. There are a few other non-moderators who also know me and my music on here but they won't tell you either.

 

Like @MMJ2017 this new individual @Freetobestolen uses identical arguments and a cursory analysis of his literary style confirms it. Hey Jaq! Still flogging that dead horse?

 

He summoned you this time archbishop? Please refrain from falling in lust with the chisel too. Do better or get excommunicated.

 

What is this tripe? He is perfectly capable of being his own person.

 

it would be totally absurd and unrelated to any other of the explanations but you could just do the cross-check on the basis of my little theory (which, as you can see, fully ignores anything releated to fifths and triads):

why doesnt it work so good to construct a scale of 3 out of 12 or of 10 out of 12, most equally distributed across the ocatve? how would the modes of such a scale look like?

(yeah i know, it will be more diffcult to reason why it is not 6 or 8)

 

Last edited: Jun 12, 2021

Would you consider hamonization or stack of intervals of any kind?
If to be used strictly under a melodic perspective, or drone tone, chances are it might work, like Indian Ragas, Arabian Hijaz, etc...

 

Augmented-6/Augmented hexatonic has 6/6 packing with major-minor triads, so it beats diatonic one (6/7). It was for first time used by Liszt (considering famous people only, of course). (There is a 7/7 scale in 12 ET, but it's weird.) Still, augmented-6 is far from even in octave in 12 ET; it is even in 9 ET or 9 tone mode of limited transposition. This may tell you enough - evenness is far from being a good criteria.
There are many theoretically good and underexplored scales, melodic patterns in 12 ET.
IF someone follows a certain set of rules, he/she will sound in a particular way.
That's why jazz or classical people are so funny, they think they have discovered something universal when their theory covers only a fraction of what is in theory possible (I am talking a music having a different sound character - we got one type of sound by playing let's say 7-note diatonic scales, another - playing other 7 note scales, third - playing 6 or 5, or 8 note scales, another - playing chromatic modulating sequences that are 12 ET thing, not belonging to a scale, another -playing polytonal non-octave stuff, another -playing non-standard chord structures, another -playing clusters, another -relying on manipulating overtones as our main method of producing harmony).

 

I guess you meant arabian Maqams?

Afaik Hijaz means holy land, as in saudi arabia/mecca..

 

Some other scales that are very nice/unique sounding but hardly talked about are the Japanese scales..

Also it's possible to create nice pentatonic scales from heptatonic ones,
like for instance: take the 2nd and the 6th out from Mixolydian, you get 1 3 4 5 b7.. I really love this one.

Locrian pentatonic can be 1 b3 4 b5 b7, very japanese sounding too..

Lydian could be 1 3 #4 6 7, also a bit japanese.. etc.


And what about Verdi's Enigmatic scale?
1 b2 3 ♯4 ♯5 ♯6 7

As crazy as it is, I found it naturally while working in an orchestral track,
where contextually it was the actual best option to use..

 

OK guys, this is a link about hundreds of different scales, each one discussed in details . It is obvious that Bix Beiderbecke , Satchmo, Hawk, Prez, Tatum, Bird, Rollins, Trane, have absorbed this knowledge , it is this that is the true essence of jazz !
Forget about listening, transcribing, learning tunes, etc !!! It is this intellectual knowledge of scales that will make you play jazz, getting gigs !
This is the key ! Enjoy and become a great jazzmen , a great composer , a great musician ! Scales !!! Just listen and think it over : Bireli Lagrene or Django do not know music theory and scales, they can not play interesting stuff , poor them ! have a good day !
https://www.youtube.com/c/TheExcitingUniverseofMusicTheory/videos