Very nice; I hadn't seen that before. Thanks

Slightly related...

I remember (a long time ago) being confused and amazed at discovering modes.

Step 1 was discovering them diatonically, i.e., C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc, always using the same 7 notes

Step 2 was realising that on my guitar I would need to (essentially) think of and master parallel modes instead of diatonic modes, i.e., play using the same root - C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, etc
a lot more to learn than the simple displaced-start-note-in-a-scale of diatonic modes.

Step 3 was the insight of realising that parallel modes could be better explored via circle of fifths/fourths,
e.g., C Ionian, C Mixolydian, C Dorian, C Aeolian for reasons that are summarised in the chart below.
I remember that this did help me by adding one more way for me to visualise how chromatic tones relate to diatonic.
from post https://audiosex.pro/posts/443801/


Note how if you travel away from Ionian
- towards Lydian to collect one sharp
- towards Phrygian to collect four flats

So combining Lydian and Phrgyian has covered all 5 chromatics outside of diatonic Ionian.
This is in a very tiny way related to Bartok choosing to combine Lydian and Phrygian to embrace all 12 chromatic tones.
How Bartok then went on to use this - I haven't the faintest idea. Definitely tempted to explore when time permits.

---

Update: I ought to add this question (in complete ignorance).
I wonder why Bartok chose to combine Phrygian and Lydian to get all 12 tones?
He could also have chosen to combine Ionian and Locrian. I would have thought that, given the prominence of Ionian,
the Ionian + Locrian choice might have been explored first.
So, I wonder what the pros and cons are with each choice?
Maybe just Locrian is a bitch to work with.
Maybe if he was fusing repertoire styles there were fewer sources in Locrian flavour?

 

Last edited: Jun 26, 2021

Comment about simple Blues
Just adding a comment about the Blues comment mentioned in the chart above.
I went through a phase of viewing it like this.
Blues in E Major. We call it key of E and yet we play three chords E7 A7 B7 and only the B7 is strictly in key of E Major,
(confused the hell out of me when I was a beginner)
But
E7 is E Mixolydian
A7 is (same diatonic space as) E Dorian
B7 is (same diatonic space as) E Ionian
So, for a short while, I started thinking of the I IV V blues as
I E7 (E Mixolydian), IV A7 (E Dorian), V B7 (E Ionian) (and they are neighbouring modes centered on Mixolydian)
i.e. I'm in key of E the whole time but changing the flavour/mode of E for each chord.
I noted the only difference between the Mixolydian and the Dorian was the major/minor 3rd and tried to make my simplest ever lead playing by playing just those notes. i.e., as the I moves to the IV play a pre-bent major third (from Mixolydian) and let it unbend to a minor third (from Dorian) and then do the reverse when moving back from IV to I. Eventually decided this is part of why we are happy to just scruffily use the combined Mixo/Dorian scale over all of it. Pretty obviously this is only an impoverished cartoon sketch of those 3 blues chords but I remember briefly enjoying seeing it from this perspective

 

Last edited: Jun 26, 2021

One thing I first realized on the Modes of Major scale is that..
the Character notes, the notes that are more colorful/defining of that Mode,
appear/happen where the tritone lays..

Sometimes this happens between the Two character notes,
sometimes only on One..

Ionian, tritone between 4rth/nat7th
Dorian, tritone between b3/6th
Phrygian, tritone between b2/5th, although I'd say overall b6 is more defining..
Lydian, tritone between #4/1st, again I'd say nat7 is more defining..
Mixolydian, tritone between b7th/3rd, again maybe 4rth is more defining (although 3rd is what differentiates it from Dorian)
Eolian, tritone between 2nd/b6, here 2nd is defining compared to Phrygian, but perhaps b7 is also defining
Locrian, tritone b5/1st, again here I will consider b2 more defining aswell..

And even more interesting things can appear on scales that have Two Tritones like Melodic or Harmonic Minor, etc..

Do whatever you want of it,
but I'd say at least is a curious correlation..

 

Last edited: Jun 26, 2021

As for Blues, yeah it's Crazy..
The number of possibilities that exist is so Big,
it will take us considerable time/research to enumerate them all..

And more considering there's a good number of variations to the basic Blues Chord progression,
many of which feature other chords than the three fundamental ones.. also there's Minor Blues,
or other Modal approaches like the one you commented..

In terms of scales this Modal approach is also very valid, depending on the context ofc,
and I've seen lots of interesting/crazy stuff applied over a Blues progression,
Diminished and Altered scales, Melodic Minor, Phrygian Dom, Mixolydian, Dorian, Major and ofc the Pentatonic scales..

And that would only be the surface, if we went into the all the Forms of blues,
like the traditional early Delta Blues, or the resonator+slide type blues, Jazz or Country influenced Blues etc etc..

So yeah, alltogheter I'm sure there would be enough material to create a completely New Thread, and by all means,
even if Blues is often considered a simplistic style, it would be interesting and handy to have a proper compendium,
ready to be consulted or elaborated upon..

 

Well that's certainly a valid point of view!
specially considering in western tradition Major/Ionian is given as the de-facto fundamental scale..

I don't know the real answer, but if I had to guess..
Locrian has never been really too well considered, as its said to be an Unstable tonality,
given it's got a b2, and no 5th but a b5..

However, I can imagine those chromatic/twelve-tone serialists must have had a thick skin,
or thick enough to deal with Locrian, if they were going head-on into Chromaticism..

Still we're talking about merely two notes difference tho,
a #4 in Lydian, and a 5th in Phrygian.. so it's not that much of a difference.


It's worth mentioning tho, that this won't be the first time Lydian scale has been taken as a Fundational scale,
as in Russell's Chromatic Lydian Concept, etc..

So yeah, no final conclusion,
but maybe other users will answer/elaborate on it..

 

Last edited: Jun 26, 2021

This bit not correct...

It's the fact that Phrygian and Lydian are maximally different that allows them to combine into all 12 tones
i.e., Phrygian and Lydian share only the root and fifth - compare with Ionian and Locrian that share only the root and fourth
and maybe that shared root and fifth for Phrygian/Lydian is what favours that choice over the Ionian/Locrian.

 

These are 2 simple tunes. Very simple. Sing aloud your sentence on any of them you like.

 

What you mean "not correct"?
You're the one who proposed it!!

I was merely commenting on the reasons why they may have decided not to use Locrian,
and why using Ionian could have made sense in relation to regular theoretical tradition/point of view..

But what you proposed is actually Right..
Ionian gives you all the White keys,
Locrian gives you all the Black keys/alterations,
except the tonic and 4rth which are shared..

So you end up with all 12 semitones neatly divided in two scales.

Ofc I'm not saying this is the ultimate solution,
just another similar point of view..


Also the shared 5th vs 4th is a valid argument..

In Philosophical terms this could also be appealing, because..
Lydian will have all the white keys, except the #4 for which it will Cross into black keys/alterations territory..
and that's where some of the Lydian beauty/appeal/magic lies..

While Phrygian would have mostly black keys, but cross into white keys territory for the 5th..
And that's casually what makes it a more Stable scale than Locrian..

So arguably they may be more "intertwined" in a functional level because they share the 5th and Tonic,
while splitting the b2 and #4 between the two, being the strongest/more dissonant alterations.


As to the real reason why Bartok might have chosen Lydian+Phrygian,
only he/his books and followers of his teachings might be able to really tell you..

 

Last edited: Jun 27, 2021

You think i have something to proove to you or others in a forum like this ? Well you are wrong. Any how, even if i did, you would disagree, and the only way to deal with the kind of species you belong to would be in a context where nobody can "cheat". That is, related to a subject like this (harmonic analysis) being in a classroom of any serious music school, because common knowledge is shared. Then it is not "you", or "me" that counts, it is just the accuracy of what is being written. At the end of the class , you give your copies, then you get a grade from "A" to "F" !
I have done this decades ago. Not interested any more. I could discuss about practical tips that can help to play, but then every one should agree on "basic knowledge". This is not the case here. It is impossible to go further when common basic knowledge is not shared.
So , you may take notes about basic functional harmonic knowledge that is commonly admited in schools, or between educators :
-Diatonic harmony and chord function. T, SD, and D functions and subsitutes.
-Secondary dominants and subs (including their related II') and extended dominants.
-Modal interchange (ubiquitous SD minor sounds and related chords)
-Reharm of diminished chords
- Different kind of modulations.
All of this basic knowledge is easy to find on the web. The Berklee harmony books 1 to 4 are all over the web for example.
It is very easy to know if a teacher or student knows this stuff or not. I know this stuff, that is why i can say that you don't.
It is not important to know it or not. Bireli does not, he is a great player, no one gives a shit about that !
Problem is when miserable people start a discussion like this one on this thread, each one giving is opinion and analysis without any control by
someone who knows. And you want me to "proove" that i am an "expert" ?!
To you ???
I do not give a shit about what you think about my "level" or my "knowledge" dude ! LOL !

 

Last edited: Jun 27, 2021

That was a mixture of irony and sarcasm. But it is normal for an idiot not to get it ! Same when the idiot desperatly tries to analyse chord progressions : the idiot does not recognise the "sound" in context to a chord progression, and just explains things from his narrow minded ears and understanding point of view.
Just saying : "on this chord, you can play this scale" . Pathetic . That is the reason for me giving the link to hundreds of scales, pointing out that Django or Bireli do not know about this, but have huge ears and musicianship, (to say the least about thes giants)

 

Last edited: Jun 27, 2021

..

You keep on bringing the stuff on the Academic terrain,
but then when it's convenient say "oh because in a real life scenario I will pick the instrument and blahblah.."

So what is it, Academy or Stage?

In any case my intention was Never that of:
Doing a perfectly and Academically complete Functional/Structural analysis..

My intention was doing Exactly what I did,
and since it seems you're a bit hard on the ear I'm gonna repeat it..

My intention was more that of doing a Contextual Harmonic analysis,
and also bring the player/improviser's point of view, because that's what matters to me..

Still, from that perspective I already outlined Most of the important stuff in a Functional/Structural level.
And that's clear to see in both my Original Harmonic analysis, and the second Extended analysis of Armando's Rumba.

And you know what, I think is Perfectly Correct.

If I'm Wrong in any of it, you can come and Correct me.

Or if from your Expert and Academist point of view I Missed anything important,
you can come and Tell Us about it.. I will be the First one to Value and Celebrate the Contribution.

But Alas that's Not what you're doing,
or will ever do.. and it will Never Happen.


-You are still on the first box -> Whining and Complaining,
because my analysis didn't fit what you presume the Academists would like to see in a Functional/Structural analysis..

Namely:
Put more focus on naming the Dominant, Subdominant, Mediant type of stuff,
which in this Context is Pointless, because it's a Simple track in Structural terms,
even tho I have already outlined Most, if not All of the important/significant stuff in a Functional/Structural level.

Secondary Dominants of which I don't see many in Armando's,
except the Second chord which could be considered a V/V,
even tho it's Not Diatonic unless you were centered in the C Dorian #4 tonality..
(which btw is not Static and Fixed, because at times,
like when the G7 chord comes, it shifts to f.e. Harmonic Minor, etc..)

Modal Interchange of which I have given a pretty Considerable number of Examples,
given all the alternative scales/modes I talked about and gave as possible options..

Different kind of Modulations?
You're the one denying the validity of a Clear, Empirical and Basic concept like Chromatic Modulation.

I'm the one Bringing the topic, and also explaining other types of modulations,
like the "minor third up" modulation, and cycle of 4rths in Paisagem..
or All the Flipping rest of modulations I've talked about, of which Paisagem and Armando's are Full of.

All of this Basic knowledge that you mention I Already Know,
but again My Focus and intention with those Contextual Harmonic analysis,
was Not and Ever doing a full and Academically Perfect recollection of all the stuff that occurs in a Functional/Structural level..
(even tho I outlined Most if not All of it..)

Do I need to repeat it Again?


-And well, what could I say about the rest of your usual Condescending and Cocky comments..

You are the one calling himself an Expert in the first place.
You are the one bringing academism, and complaining nonstop about Pointless things,
while presenting faux challenges like "you and me in the stage blah blah.." or "you and me in a clasroom blah blah.."
and of course all the Fallacies and Strawmen arguments we have seen, which we will no-doubt/ofc keep seeing..

Because that's what you do.
Because that's the Lame level at which you function, and the Horrible kind of person that you are.

Now, if you had a Minimum level of humility and Virtue, or any intention to Bring Anything on the Table,
other than your Whining, Complaining, Cocky Condescending comments and menaces, etc etc etc..

You will take All of that magnificent Expert's Academic Knowledge and Apply it here for us to see..

Be it Correcting my Academically Wrong harmonic analysis and point/s of view.

Or Bringing your Academically Perfect Analysis.
Which would be Awesome, and very much Appreciated..

But since you're just a mere Charlatan, you will Never bring Any of it.

So again:
Put your Money where your Mouth is.
Bring us a Complete and Perfect Harmonic and Structural/Functional analysis of Paisagem and Armando's, (and Solar and Giant Steps)
and include not only the Structural/Functional grade stuff, but also -> the overall Contextual Harmonic analysis,
along with the Approach you will take as an Expert Player and Improviser.

Be an Expert, set the Example.

Or don't.

But don't blame me,
enough Whining already.


(And btw if you didn't notice,
we were having a Perfectly Nice, correct and very Productive conversation before you came back to torture us..
So think about it, why is it that when you Talk -> Shit happens?
Maybe it's not our fault, but yours.. really think about it, that's my only and humble advice for you)

 

Last edited: Jun 27, 2021

Can not talk with you dude, all of what you say does not interest me. U R nothing . The many examples and links and advices i gave should be
enough to make you think , but you are hopeless. BTW i did not take time to read all of your crap.
"But since you're just a mere Charlatan, you will Never bring Any of it."
it is a real pleasure for me to be considered by you as a charlatan !
I don't like the idea of being liked by assholes, or deaf music students. So i am a charlatan ? Thank you ! "So what is it, Academy or Stage?" Both ! You are a pathetic loser on both sides, i whish i was wrong, but i know after reading through your bullshit that you can not play this music.

 

Last edited: Jun 27, 2021

I guess at this point things are clear for Anyone to See,
and as they say:
Don't feed the Charlatan and Pretender TROLL..

Walk your Talk, or > Move On.

We're not interested in your Whining,
Cocky Condescending comments, Lies, Fallacies and Strawmen arguments..

Go away now!

 

Me not being able to reply to you ? What are you talking about, "Adolf" ? Or "Benito", you choose !

 

Exactly what i am trying to explain to you since the beginning ! Why do you think i gave those links ? (Adam Neely on Ipanema among others)
Why do you think i gave you a list of things to study that deal precisely with those things ? (non diatonic chords moving without implying modulations) If i say it it's wrong and not worth anything, but if i give a link it's valuable ! C'mon dude !

 

So what's your thoughts ?
My thought is once again the same thing : Learn about functional harmony.
I just explained this sound to you in private message : It is the ubiquitous "sub dom minor" sound .
That is : Borrowed chord from parallel minor key. In this case the sub dom minor family

Example in G
Gmaj : Gmaj 7 A min 7 Bmin 7 Cmaj7 D7 Emin 7 F#m7b5
Analysis : I Maj 7 II m7 III min7 IV maj7 V7 VIm7 VII m7b5

Parallel min : Gmi7 Amin7b5 BbMaj7 Cmin7 Dmin7 Eb Maj7 F7
Analysis : Imin7 IImin7b5 bIII maj7 IVmin7 Vmin7 bVIMaj7 bVII7

(Layout is not good, roman numbers should be exactly under corresonding chord symbols, I can't fix it)

Chords of the sub dominant minor family are named this way because they contain the scale degree "b6" ("Eb" in G)
Amin7b5, Cmin7, Ebmaj7 and F7 (respectively IImin7b5, IVmin7, bVI maj7 and bVII7) all share an Eb.
Functional harmony is useful because it allows the player-improvisor to hear things in context, and memorise "blocks" instead of seeing chord by chord, scale by scale. No matter if you do it by ear, or if theory helps, hearing "blocks" of chord movement is what allows a trained musician to recognise patterns "on the spot", because the same chord patterns occurs very often in « standards » tunes.

As I wrote before it is extremely useful to be able to identify :
-Diatonic harmony and chord function. T, SD, and D functions and substitutes.
-Secondary dominants and subs (including their related II') and extended dominants.
-Modal interchange (ubiquitous SD minor sounds and related chords)
-Reharm of diminished chords
- Different kind of modulations

Last thing : This is not "my" point of view, or "my" knowledge of functional harmony. This is commonly admitted and taught worldwide info that anyone with common sense, ears and brain can get. And get deeper, because i can not resume 4 semesters of harmony program in music schools in one page. Do what you want with this. Check it out, or stay in your mediocrity thinking that you know, it's your little ego problem to pretend that you know when you do not. I do not suffer from this disease because i am constantly learning, transcribing, ang have my ears and mind open for concepts i do not hear or know about. Because that is the thing : if one (whoever) do not "hear" the concepts, it is not worth anything.
Just makes you a fool on a forum writing musical nonsense, showing to qualified musicians where you are, in your case not very far.

 

Last edited: Jun 27, 2021

Hi guys, I just find an app pretty robust about chords, I played a little adding many chords and a basic sequence incluse let me save all that i did and saved it in this shareable link, could be cool if the forum had such integration to listen chords or tabs or scores, specialy in threads like this one.

https://www.onemotion.com/chord-player/#Clnj371B

 

I am certain that the greats like Biréli Lagrène would not even wish to engage in this debate. If they did, we would all be wise to listen and learn. @george31 would agree there is too much shouting and not enough listening and it most definitely is not in the spirit of sharing musical knowledge. Something I pointed out 5 pages ago and yet we are again.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2021

Everyone who is interested in weirdness would love to engage in this debate:

I listened to the whole album and I don't remember even 10 seconds of it. Memorability is something of rarity in this kind of music. Why does this happen in this music?