That's a fundamental question. That question defines the policy. Without knowing where we're going to end up, no deal will happen.

Some people believe that music has logic, and they follow that prevailing logic and try to look at music systematically, but some people don't have a specific logic for music and they allow anything.

Is any understanding or any innovation allowed in music? If permitted, then speaking of musical logic is considered futile, but if the scope of innovation is defined, the logic of music can be defended.

 

At a functional level because the major seventh's are standalone and the tune is atypical Jobim, Automatically going Lydian is one of several choices depending on how the improviser sees it harmonically - If their melody leans to any of these: Lydian sure, Lydian augmented sure, Ionian sure, it's relative is a Gm9 (Bbmaj7)too also valid. I learn the original versions which is the only way to learn tunes. Many in the real book have incorrect chords this tune is in Bb not A. Any one of those can be turned functionally another way in an improvisation which is what you are talking about. A good improviser won't limit themselves with diatonic functional harmony either. Keith Jarret is a perfect example and so is Corea, or Miles, or Trane, or Herbie, or Garzone who extends even further on that ideology and many, many, many others.

As for Giant Steps try playing it at half the speed as a Bossa Nova. You'd be surprised. Then when you take it back up... Also - One of Trane's alternate takes on it is much slower.
Out of interest, how old are you and how many years have you been a professional musician out of interest?

 

Last edited: Jun 21, 2021

"They teach you there's a boundary line to music, but, man, there's no boundary line to art."

- Charlie Parker

 

WTF ? What are you talking about ? Let's be serious please , read what i have been writing, ther is no such thing, i constantly refer to the point that the knowledge i am talking about is not "mine", but is shared worldwide. I also gave you examples of GREAT channels on YT , Jazzduets is just awesome.

This is so obvious that i don't understand your need to point it out.

It is you that focused on some of the things that i wrote and did not please you, i wrote lots of other things that could benefit to everyone.

You are absolutely right !

Well, a proper and fruitful conversation can only be done with honest people that knows wher their limit is, not with people that pretend have an experience and knowledge that they OBVIOUSLY do not have .

I gave a lot of analys and tips. Read ! Understand ! Apply .

Listen to Coltrane's recording ! It swings like hell ! Very intense !
About "Coltrane changes" i gave you a tip,you that says : "the only positive/constructive contribution you guys have been able to bring".
Read ! Undestand ! Apply !

One last thing : You are not familiar with all of this, it is OBVIOUS.
Just change attitude. When you meet people that know, listen ! Investigate ! Make that knowledge yours .
You could have learned a lot from me, even more from bassdude.
It is important in life to be able to recognise people that are above where you are at the moment.
It never ends. The more we know the more we know that the musical universe is huge and that the more it is to know.
But pretending that you know in front of someone that is more qualified and has more knoledge just closes doors for you.
I talk to you in this way because I see wher you are , you have a lot of things to discover. Basic things. Then "Maybe we could be having more of a proper and Fruitful conversation" like you say. Until then, i can not have any fruitful convesation with you, or whoever that have the attitude that is yours. No i do not like people that pretend "knowing" when they don't. I am the opposite of you. I want to learn, and when i meet someone that knows more or have more experience than me , i do not feel bad, i ask, i listen. Bassdude is one of them, i am collecting some questions that i will ask him one day, about very advanced stuff that i know he masters. But guys that pretend "knowing" or have experience when everything they say proove the opposite makes me angry, no matter the subject.
Your analys of "inutil paisagem", the words you use, the fact that you say that this tune is modulating when it is not, just proove that you are not qualified to talk about "functional harmony" (Yes it belongs to this kind of harmony, this is not W.Shorter,Hancock or post bop harmony that is something else, with different harmonic analys. There also i gave you a tip : Ron Miller channel and books)
That was my last words to you, you do not need to agree because i do not give a shit about your agreement with me.
Honestly, i wish i could meet you on stage with instruments. Then the one who can play plays. The one who "hears" and plays is heard .
The one who pretends "knowing", and hearing and playing is also heard. This is then becoming "a fruitful conversation", because music is meant to be played, or taught, but theorical discussions about harmony with people that pretend "knowing" when they just regurgitate some basic stuff about chord scale has is definitly very little to do with "fruitful discission". You are not qualified to talk with me about harmony that is it !
You are just pretending. You are not honest. I do not like that . Not at all.

 

To clear up things , one fundamental element :
It is wise to differenciate "Music" , and "styles", genre, era , etc...
Because each style or era has its own codes, otherwise one could not be able to recognise what's going on.
Those "styles" have an inner logic, codes, that are commonly admitted by players and audience.
What is admitted in one genre is not in another.
But in "the big picture" everything is admitted off course, otherwise it would have been impossible to evolve .
Tritone interval would still be forbidden, same for parallel 5fth's !

 

You missed one thing, the title:
"Portrait of an Asshole"..

No, I am.

Without that Basic and Fundamental knowledge you cannot go on to the next levels,
and understand the Concepts I've been talking about and the Perspective from which I did.

I probably could.. and I Tried!

But Alas all you do, and all you have to offer is this ... and it's a Shame really.

Why don't you put all that Expertise and Knowledge to good use,
and bring us your own Analysis of Paisagem or Armando's Rumba,
which includes not only the Structural/Functional grade analysis you're so fond of,
but also the Contextual Harmonic analysis and Player/improviser's approach??

If you are such a knowledgeable Expert,
I'm pretty sure you will have something Interesting to say about the matter, (other than whining about structural/functional analysis)
and I would certainly Love to hear it.


Besides..
Unlike you, I Never doubted of Bassdude's, or Your Knowledge and Expertise, Ever.

But I'm still waiting for it to show in any aspect other than the Egotic attitude, Cocky responses and Insults.
(from Bassdude I already learned a few little things tho..)

And what can I say,
with all of it I'm starting to have my Doubts already..

I'm not Pretending anything. Period.

I come and express my Opinion/Point of view,
and I try to substantiate that when possible/necessary.

Then, I also brought an Harmonic analysis of Paisagem and Armando's,
which are indeed two great examples of CHROMATIC MODULATION.

Certainly, Not a NEW or Strange/Difficult to grasp concept at all.
But strangely enough, even tho you're such an Expert, it seems you never heard about or considered it..

Maybe it's something more common in the traditional Orchestral music perspective,
rather than on the Jazz/Fusion one, I don't know..

But it's certainly not a Strange or Hard to grasp Concept at all.

Surely.. as basic as Chromatic Modulation

Your're talkin about Basic and Elemental Structural/Functional ii-V-I type of stuff..

Whereas I've been talkin about Harmony in it's Broadest sense, like:
Contextual Harmonic analysis, including Scales/Modes and Substitution, Modulations, Chromatic Modulations, Borrowed Chords, Circle of Fourths etc..

Blah blah blah, Bullshit, Pointless/Pretentious moral lessons, and Strawmen arguments..

Ok Boomer!

I Never said it didn't belong to Functional Harmony,
stop Making things Up.

But in any case, if I'm so wrong..
Instead of complaining so much, why don't you bring us your Correct Analysis, so we can learn from it?

And then ofc,
more Blah blah blah, Cocky comments, Unfounded inventions/lies, Idiotic Arrogance and just some general Bullshit..

There May be a Pretender in this conversation afterall..

I don't know, I never thought about that,
but I can Assure you it's certainly Not me!


Put your Money where your Mouth is.
Bring us a Complete and Perfect Harmonic and Structural/Functional analysis of Paisagem and Armando's, (and Solar and Giant Steps)
and include not only the Structural/Functional grade stuff, but also -> the overall Contextual Harmonic analysis,
along with the Approach you will take as an Expert Player and Improviser.

Be an Expert, set the Example.

But don't blame me,
enough Whining already.

 

Last edited: Jun 22, 2021

PS: And for those who don't know WTF we're talking about..
(if there's anyone ofc )

This guy here, is having a Melodramatic vaginal Meltdown simply because I Obviated,
and didn't include a full/separated Structural/Functional grade part in my Harmonic analysis..

In Armando's Rumba it's a Simple as..
First part :
im-II7-V7-im
Cm-D7-V7-Cm (more later..)

Happy now??
And why is it so Crucial that you need to have it or you're having an Expert Tantrum?

In my previous Harmonic analysis:
I already explained that "im" is Obviously the Tonal Center,
and that the V7 chord is a Borrowed chord to make the cadence more "authentic/perfect".

Everyone should know this upon seeing/playing the progression,
it's the most Basic stuff possible..

But I explained more, MUCH More:
For instance that in the first Cm chord you could play many different scales:
Eolian, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, Dorian or --> Romanian/Dorian#4

And that when the second D7 chord comes, it would be good/preferable to play D Phrygian Dominant,
which is the Same as playing C Romanian/Dorian #4.

Because Obviously the 3rd of D7 which is F#, will be a common note,
being also the #4 of C Romanian/Dorian#4.

And that's very Handy,
and something I recommend to anyone learning/playing this track.


Then I also Explain that since the fifth G7 chord is Borrowed, not Diatonic to C Eolian nor Dorian,
you could try to play C Harmonic Minor to Enhance it..

And while that might not be the Only option/s,
It's still Much Better and much more Useful to anyone, than just saying:

It's a im-II7-V7-im progression..
Uuuhhgghhh (elephant man w/down syndrome face..)


Then the track Continues, and substitutes the im chord for a I7 or a I7b9 chord, Obviously.

But I went further and added that in this chord/moment you could/should probably play:
C Mixolydian.. HW Diminished or Phrygian Dominant//Bebop Scale (Mixolydian +b2) if you went for a C7b9
(besides of obviously Chord Tones..)

Then it goes to the fourth of C7, which is Fm7 in a I7-ivm7 partial cycle of fourths progression,
(even tho the target chord is indeed minor,
which will be more compatible and fully diatonic with the original C minor tonality)


And then from Fm7 it proceeds with -> F#7b5, Gm7, Abº, Aº, and Bbsus4-9,
which Functionally, are or can be seen as Five Chromatic Modulations side by side..

And I explained exactly what's the underlining harmony in each of the chords involved.
F Dorian, F# Whole Tone, G Dorian, Ab HW Diminished, A WH Diminished... and Bb Mixolydian on the Bbsus4-9.


Then, in that Bbsus4-9 you are going back into Diatonic harmony,
given that C is the general tonal center of the track..

And there you can play Bb Mixolydian,
which will also work as good for the next two chords, Bb7 and Eb69,
which are also Diatonic to that same C minor harmony/tonality and tonal center..

IOW Bb is the 7th degree of C Eolian,
and thus it's perfectly Diatonic if you're playing Bb Mixolydian..

Then Eb69 is the 4rth of Bb, but you keep on playing Bb Mixolydian because,
it's Diatonic, it's the exact same notes as Eb Major.

This can be seen as another partial I7-IV7 cycle of fourths progression,
where the Eb69 works as a Pivot chord that continues to the next and Final chord G7#5,
but only after the Bass line Chromatic Embellishment.. (Not modulation)

--> E F F# G7#5...

And that's very handy because,
G7#5 happens to be the V7 chord of Cm (im), (and also the 3rd of Eb and the 6th of Bb)
and thus it serves as: the continuation From the Partial fourths cycle/pivot chord, while also being the Fifth of the tonal center,
and being a Borrowed V7th chord with a #5 alteration..

Leads Perfectly back to the Tonal Center, Cm and the beginning of the whole progression.

(This whole final part could be also described as a non-diatonic I7-IV69-VI7#5 progression From Bb Mixolydian,
which uses the Eb69 as a Pivot chord, and leads to the G7#5, Eb being the #5 of G,
and G7#5 being the Borrowed dominant chord that will lead you Back to the Cm tonality..)


-Now tell me,
Why is it so fucking important and crucial to have the im-II7-V7-im sticker,
or the rest of the Structural/Functional grade stuff included.

In such a Simple, Basic and Reduced track/context as this??

In my original Harmonic analysis,
I have already explained the most important/significant implications the Chords had in a Functional sense..
(like the borrowed V7, the I7 substitution, the Chromatic Modulations, etc)

And went Much Beyond that, and included the overall Contextual Harmonic analysis,
talking about what would be the best choices in each moment, and why.. (in my opinion)

Because that's simply much more Interesting and Important, (to me)
than the mere Basic and primary school concept of Structural/Functional grade harmony.


But yeah, what can you do..
It's the typical stuff that happens when one is trying to talk about Complex and Interesting things like Harmony, on the Internet.

The typical idiot will come, and start Trolling and spreading shit like a cancer,
then everything gets stained, the discussion Derives from the Topic,
and we cannot have a proper and Fruitful Conversation.

And in this case it seems we've got a true seasoned and knowledgeable Expert playing that part..

 

Last edited: Jul 4, 2021

But it's still off topic in this thread....

 

So, is "expanding a Major tonality range" achieved by purchasing a full-length keyboard - or do i have to enrole in a three year 'advanced muso posturing' course as well?

 

Actually, expanding on a major tonality range or a minor tonality completely depends on either the chords the improviser is presented with, or how they structure a line in their improvisation in western music. The Arabic Maqamat already expands on minor much like a BeBop scale expands on majors and minors. The answer is that simple - there has never been one way to do anything. There are many more alternatives than anyone here has mentioned. There are no boundaries to ART.

The interesting thing that any seasoned improviser will tell you is that the chords that precede or follow any other chord also determine choices if faced with them for the first time. I just didn't want to throw a commonly known professional fact into the fray. This is applicable to every single tune every person has mentioned. So expanding? PFFFTTT... it's dependent completely on what anyone is presented with as a musical form. Even then, it is relative to the creativity and imagination of the improviser. .

 

Last edited: Jun 22, 2021

My contribution

I am pretty interested in music theory from kid, after discovering that all the tempered music is unnatural or dissonant (the third it's always out of tune and then the seventh harmonic (1/7) it's never used as it's almost a exactly 1/4 tone), specially in the higher frequencies, and when exploring harmony by ear and maths,

So I tried to find a way to release humanity from the musical jail of playing just specific frequencies instead of using all the spectrum, just imagine all painters using carefully just 12 colors without mixing them because it's taboo or looks bad (now I found this funny lol)

I listened music from everywhere, tried many scales including Ragas and other exotic scales, but it's almost all the same.

My approach now it's dynamic, meaning that scales are useful just as theory, the real magic happen with the intervals, and the intervals between two note directly affect the next notes.

These are some rules that I found so far (by maths and ear)

1 Avoid play short intervals as will sound dissonant or unstable, or intervals that are too close to a natural harmonic.

for example 440 and 460 will make a dissonant 20 hz (too short interval)

2 Avoid to play short intervals next to the natural harmonics (into the octave) as:

440 with a 550 (perfect third) or a 440 with a 660 (perfect fifth) also with the fourth will also sound dissonant if the interval is too short
examples
440 530 again 20hz of dissonance
660 640 = 20 hz
440 860 = 20 hz

this effect is reduced or proportional of what harmonic is played
as example a frequency to close of 440 is perceived much more odd that one around 880 also less odd around 660 and subtle around 550

3 too close frequencies will not be perceived as two different frequencies but instead as a vibrato or another effect.

4 it seems that any frequency that it's an harmonic or that is enough far as a second or minor third interval distance it is ok to be played.

5 This is cool or new
when two notes are played at the same time for example 440 and 470 = 30 hz dissonance the next frequencies that match that frequency difference will sound ok or "harmonic" so 440 - 470 - 500 - 530 as all share a difference of 30hz will sound ok

Now this is what I am exploring as it's weird compared to conventional theory, in practice the difference between vibrations generate a new layer where the harmonics could happen too

Now the difference of 30 hz in the octave of 440 it's not logarithmic so there is no clear point when using 880 and 60hz of difference, I think this is related to how human hear perceive dissonance and harmony (besides the bias of listening out of the tempered scale)

Another thing is that dissonance or disharmony it's also beautiful, I think in the minor third (minor scale) it feel dissonant so we are always expecting the harmonic counter part, well this is my theory so any dissonance after some harmonies will natural try to resolve in a more harmonic way, trying to follow some of the other rules.

Testing
I am so interested in this, I am currently doing tests in max for live, super collider and adding more complexity, currently I am trying only with sinusoidal waves, my goal it's exploring human voice as it's so complex and rich in harmonics and well our brain do so much stuff about voice, specially related to feelings.

 

That's the starting point I intended to bring about. The "system".

So how could infinite be described, or to exist, if contained within a finite space? That's counter-intuitive, but it's done frequently.

That's why, a few pages ago, I've taken a simple Major Pentatonic and inserted all the "wrong notes" at once.


Regarding the video, to my interpretation, there are two fundamental subjects:

1- Chord inversions ( establishing a correlation amongst "unrelated" things )

2- Why C7 to Ab7 works? ( please check the attachment )

 

Thanks for comprehensively sharing your thoughts.

I'm gonna detain myself of going metaphysical and spare you of what my thoughts about Jobim's brilliance, once Inutil Paisagem is one of the many gems he had provided us with.

This tune alone is subject to a potentialy huge new thread, but I'm gonna (humbly) try to impart my perspective about some of its introductory aspects.

Keeping the tonality in A :

1. The Lydian chromatic descending arpeggios (scales? modes? pentatonics?)



2. The I - IIm - IVm connecting chords



3. As of the prior chords, starts one immense turnaround of altered dominants in 4ths from C#7(13) back to the I, what I'd refer as Jobim's turnaround, and I'm gonna leave at that.

Cheers

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2021

Google Layla Hathaway - she is renowned for doing harmonised vocal harmonics live and you can probably find some videos on her online. There used to be a masterclass she did live where she demonstrates. She certainly demonstrably expanded the potential tonality of the human voice.

 

Last edited: Jun 22, 2021

The moderator is just doing what he's supposed to, but your questioning is indeed pertinent.
In order to compose a solution, may I suggest you to start a new thread focusing on what you've brought about, so we can take it further on?

Thanks in advance

 

Thanks for your contribution. Very interesting indeed.

Side comment: I may be mistaken but, a long time ago when I was chasing after intervals vs frequencies, under 440Hz as reference, if my memory serves me well, the only tonality where all the frequencies/pitches fall into the same 8va is C; all the others extrapolate the 8va frequencywise, as of their fifth degree or so...

 

About C7 and Ab7..

I never thought about it before,
but it's interesting because it sounds quite Natural even tho there's an important clash in the modulation..

From the point of view of C7, Ab7 introduces the b3 #4 an b6 of C

But it still manages to sound kinda related/natural,
the clash is not too intense..

In a way it reminds me of Mixolydian and Bebop Scale,
first because there's a b6 interval from C to Ab, which reversed is a nat. 3rd interval.

And also because afterall a Mixolydian/Bebop Scale could have either:
a b3, a b6, or even a #4 as alterations, considering #4=b5 which can also be seen/perceived as the Blues note.

Also the b3 can be seen as a Blues note in Major Blues..

(From the point of view of Ab7, C7 introduces the #5 and nat7,
which could also be seen as alterations in the Bebop Scale: Mixo +b6/+7)

So yeah, it's certainly not Diatonic,
but can be Closely Related depending from the perspective you're looking at it.


More importantly it also reminded me of the Whole Tone scale..
If you substitute that 5th in the chord, for a #4/b5, or even better for #5/b6,
you can move the chords around, and it's always diatonic to Whole Tone..

First the sound of the descending b6 intervals is very Interesting/Natural in its own..
C - Ab - E

Then add the chord:
C7#5 - Ab7#5 - E7#5

In a guitar you could finger it like:
--x---x--x-
--x---x--x-
--9---5--1-
--8---4--0-
--11--7--3-
--8---4--0-

Or ofc with the regular 7#5 digitation:
--x--x--x-
--9--5--1-
--9--5--1-
--8--4--0-
--x--x--x-
--8--4--0-

The C7#5 could be also done one string lower ofc:
-x--
-5--
-3--
-6--
-3--
-x--


So yeah that's pretty much it..

Summarizing I guess two Possible reasons why the C7-Ab7 movement sounds OK, is because:
1.- It can be perceived as some kind of Bluesy alteration/modulation..
2.- It can be perceived as being very close to Whole Tone, which in itself flows very naturally..

Extra:
A little ascending line/melody containing All the chord tones and Leading from C to Ab could be:
C D# E F# G Bb -> Ab, and then.. Gb F Eb
C7 _______________Ab7

 

Last edited: Jun 23, 2021

You reminded me of a very interesting little thing called Hermode tuning..
http://www.hermode.com/index_en.html

Which is like a Self-adjusting Dynamic tuning system,
that tries to Correct/Improve the little incorrectness of Equal Temperament, but in relation to the Context..

I don't know if it relays solely on improving the momentary Chords,
or if you can actually determine in which overall Tonality you're on a given moment, etc..

But it's a very interesting thing that could even be Standard one day!
who knows..

Good thing is, it's an actual piece of Software that works with Logic and Cubase..

Alas (to me) I'm a Reaper user, otherwise I would be all over it!

 

A challenge: try to find a decent music theory textbook from the last several hundred years
that does NOT discuss 'chromatic mediants' in somewhat more depth than here.

 

You were the first to spot where and when I was trying to head the conversation towards what yourself called "diatonic spaces".
Now you repeat the feat. Congrats.
Are you in for the challenge? I hope so. You're sharp minded.

Welcome back.