A paragon of cognitively salient musicality, no? Not to suggest his cognitive salience may not be further embiggened upon, but... cognitively salient, did I spell that right? Do I even know what it means?! Googel?

Peter Racz's cromulent "The Memetics of Music: A Neo-Darwinian View of Musical Structure and Culture" explains it thusly:

"A segment is cognitively salient if it has a large surprisal value, when compared to an array of language input. A variable that has cognitive salient realization can, in turn, be a marker of social indexation, becoming socially salient for the members of the language community."

Aha! So I did, i did spell it right. Good.

JB's hair looks nice... and his music? just poppin' with high index of cognitive salience ([is]tonal/modal music based on repetition, variation and contrast of musical parameters ... simply music composition grounded on genre/style, not in hidden layers of structuralism/hybridization). And, last but not least, it's intellectually untaxing -- just what the common listener craves

 

I'm not a polka fan. I dislike polka. No one I know enjoys polka. Case in point.

The biz part of "showbiz," any idea what that stands for?

You mean even mainstream music can be done badly/wrong? Who knew :\

It's a picture of Amphicar: A German amphibious vehicle. It can roll, it can float. By virtue of doing both, it does neither well. Nothing else.

There you go, shattering my worldview. Next you'll tell me pro wrestling is all fake

Seriously, don't assume everything is about the end product (music) -- the artist's purported indifference, style of dress, affectations, antagonism, everything -- it's the *form* of the performance piece that is avant garde.

 

Not exactly Avantgarde, not exactly Polka, but a bit of both:

 

Lambchop, I believe your quotation comes from Peter Racz who wrote Salience in Sociolinguistics: A Quantitative Approach and not The Memetics of Music: The Neo-Darwinian View of Musical Structure and Culture, written by Steven Jan. Anyway, I did not know Steven Jan's book. Thank you very much for the reference!

From what I understand, you relate the cognitive salience concept from sociolinguistics (by Péter Rácz), with paragons (A paragon can be defined as "a person or thing regarded as a perfect example of a particular quality" - The Oxford Dictionary ... "Paragons also play an important cognitive role: We often imitate them as a representative event for a whole class of events with similar properties" - Lakoff). However, there is a kind of conceptual imbroglio here, because Racz approaches the concept of cognitive salience ("a segment is cognitively salient if it has a large surprising value when compared to an array of language input") with that of markedness (markedness - unmarked/marked is read as norm/deviation). About cognitive salience, Racz proposes that (...) this formulation implies that a completely unfamiliar segment will have the largest surprisal value). I am based on cognitive linguistics that goes against the concept of markedness for a basic reason:

This results in a deformation/simplification of thought, since any new idea or motive would draw largest surprisal, regardless of the context surrounding the act of communication/exposition (this is an old preaching of the structuralist strand and goes against the paradigms of cognitive linguistics, since unfamiliar segments can generate just the opposite - annoyance, in a given context). In addition, you are the one who brings the concept of paragon and associates it with that of salience. But here goes the most important thing about paragons: a paragon can not be a deviation (largest surprisal) but a norm. The remainder of the definition is correct (which refers to indexing process). I suggest you read a little more about it.

— JB's hair looks nice... and his music? just poppin (...)

OK, you clearly demonstrate your personal preference, but I don't share derogatory comments, even though I do not like JB. Yes those salient patterns are all there, repeated ad nauseam (sometimes), but I'm shure that a lot of JB fans do not bother about them (becoming socially salient for the members of JB fans community), unlike you dividing the musical fauna in high brow X low brow. I lived with people who did this all the time so I learned not to bother with it 'cos really do not waste my time on this kind of judgment.

— I'm not a polka fan. I dislike polka. No one I know enjoys polka. Case in point.

I understand, you really make your personal position very clear. But people who enjoy polka (a genre socially salient for the members of those communities) simply don't care about your personal taste.

The biz part of "showbiz," any idea what that stands for?

It stands for entertainment industry! Again, since I do not divide the world in black or white, I have no problem with music related to entertainment activities... I can recognize that there is some level of beauty even in intellectually untaxing things!

— You mean even mainstream music can be done badly/wrong? Who knew :\

You are absolutely right! completing your observation not only of mainstream music, but also a portion of avant garde/postmodern music! is not the mere act of incorporating elements of genres or styles that make a masterpiece, as I said in my previous post...

— It's a picture of Amphicar: A German amphibious vehicle. It can roll, it can float. By virtue of doing both, it does neither well. Nothing else.

And what is role of the blend between your text, the American flag in the picture and, just below, that quote in Russian? ... Are there layers of information? each one is responsible for the clarity of his/her own message, but its ok, this is something I see in avant garde aesthetics: some artists throw out tons of information but they do not always realize the sensations, feelings and senses associated with their creations, because it's much cool to say that they don't care about it or about reception studies (in fact, they're scared about it!)

— Seriously, don't assume everything is about the end product (...)

But I already do it! I know that avant-garde artists love a staging: some of them find it normal to call the audience idiot because of a rejection just to shock... but today, as it is an aesthetic assimilated by postmodernism, nobody really cares about this and life goes on. As I said before, I like various avant garde works/composers but not the ideology that accompanies them: a mixed of staging with sour grapes...

Nice to talk with you!

 

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There's a bit of reggae and fado too! a very funny and interesting hybrid!

"I don't turn on the radio
Coz they play shit, like....You know
When your hand was down on my dick
It felt quite amazing"

This is one of the qualities I most appreciate in postmodernism. Do not fight meaningless battles with the audience or take things so seriously... as if artists could not have fun without being seen as rejected divas... to subvert, sometimes it's better be an insider than an outsider

 

Last edited: Nov 1, 2017

My objection was not to the particulars, but the entire approach to music -- clumsy scientification of the subject, with all of the associated paraphernalia -- comical gravity, sprinkling of coined/borrowed technical jargon (the thing's as readable as Derrida. Translated to English.). Scientism of the first water, to me: a hard read (so fails as a work in its own right -- as a good music fanfic), and fails nearly all basic tests of scientific theories: is unfalsifiable (see Woody Allen link), is only marginal descriptive & has no generative power.

Implying ...what? You find the distinction dubious/artificial? All art is just about the same? Objectivity is subjective, God is dead, that sort of thing?

The proposition is simple, is this:

Mynock: ...the enjoyment of avant garde music is associated only with a very select and specialized audience of listeners
Lambchop: Isn't that the case for all music? (Universally attractive music does not exist. All music appeals only to select groups. No music appeals to everyone.)
Mynock: [what of] polka? (Exception, presumably. "But polka appeals to everyone.")
Lambchop: I don't like polka. (I am a member of the set that is "everyone"; I do not like polka; polka lacks universal appeal; ∴ it is [still] the case that all music lacks universal appeal. QED.)

We keep missing each other. You keep finding meanings where none was intended, and missing the (what I assumed was) obvious. I blame JB.

Never meant to suggested otherwise. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I find 60s rack gear oddly attractive. Some find sniffing women's shoes irresistible. I don't judge.

My point was slightly different. It's not a coping/compensation mechanism, the stance itself is a part of the artform -- as de rigueur as 3 lines are to Haiku, as pouting is to goths, as spiky things and leather chaps are to death metal. It's form. Without it, both the audience and the artist lose.

Think: Would anyone have gone to see GG Alin if he was nice to his audience? Would Batman be anything other than ridiculous if Joker wasn't an archvillain but a law-abiding, certified public accountant? It's like that.

Oh, and nice talking to you . The abrasive asshole thing -- that's a part of it too :D

 

Last edited: Nov 1, 2017

.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2018

this :

 

MMJ's fav polka song brother

 

A real masterpiece.

 

Polkas are for the hoi polloi. I prefer waltzes :|

(the smooth stylings of Killdozer)

 

#1

@Recoil maybe you like it. All of its parts are amazing.

https://clyp.it/sk2shn0b

 

@foster911 ..forgot what this thread was about - so I may be out of context, but this is great!

all parts make amazing conformation <- that's the catch..

 

Your stuff works with vids. Score vids

 

You're a super artist.

Your every work opens hearts to new mindsets and minds to new heartsets.

 

Lambchop - "cognitive salience" - I actually had to think about that.
Yes, a lot of music is that. It is not limited to any style or genre either. It's not a bad thing and I do not think its opposite is either. Which is also not limited in where it exists. It's either good or it isn't.

 

Word!

 

 

Last edited: Apr 21, 2018