Last edited: Apr 21, 2018

 

Last edited: Apr 22, 2018

Do you play Jazz Music MMJ2017 ? Theory is one thing but ear training, transcribing standards and solos, playing as much as possible with different mucicians, listening to lots of music and not only Jazz ... etc is a very different thing you know. Theory, even if it's very useful, is kinda virtual and purely intellectual. The rest is essential

 

yes my friend.

the way I look at theory is , knowledge to do things with.
If a person is missing the knowledge portion , all those rest things you mentioned won't make up for it!, (just like missing the things you mentioned won't be made up by studying music theory by itself.)

In my experience most people have easy time with ear training, playing with musicians, listening to music, but they have a hard time gaining the knowledge of how music itself works as a whole.
I am trying to assist in filling in those gaps ,most of us have.
every single person i have met that went to music school only has partial music theory knowledge, little chunks here and there, but cannot see the whole picture.
(imagine a person familiar with changing brake pads and oil in their car but clueless about installing a new transmission)
------------------------------------------------------------
for example take larger than KEY structures.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
how many people have yo met , understand the portion of theory which shows every single substitution ( from their starting KEY) folding out in proper order ( consonance to dissonance)
just by have the piece of knowledge about how music works which is larger than a KEY structure?




in the above image we have a larger than KEY structure, in fact 2
--------------------
C major KEY is the center point
all of our substitutions in order from consonance to dissonance ( related to our center C key)
can be easily accessed by using the diminished shape with 4 major keys.
C major (its ii V I) resolving to C maj
D# major (its ii V I) resolving to C maj
F# major (its ii V I) resolving to C maj
A major (its ii V I) resolving to C maj
------
porton 2 , our second structure is augmented scale.

C major (its ii V I) resolving to C maj
E major (its ii V I) resolving to C maj
G# major (its ii V I) resolving to C maj
--------------

this is every possible chord substitution related to C major KEY

test it out try it yourself!


-------

Berklee and the other music schools do not teach this.
Even if you take 15 years there. and most schools don't either ( no fault of theirs they only have so much time to get you some handling on theory at all)
they are worried about teaching "terms" based on history, and teaching in the order people in history found out about music and named things.
They are doing that INSTEAD of teaching the order that music unfolds in.
instead of teaching the way music actually works itself independent of human ideas.( and historical discoveries)dont get me wrong i belive it IS important to understand all those things as well, as long as you work on understanding music the way it works is most important.


traditional music education teaches chunks of things say key,chords,scales, intervals, etc. its good but the puzzle pieces fit together AND in a certain order too.

take for example a KEY THE first key and most important C major (a relative minor)
CDEFGAB

you have home and away from home.

CEGB home.
DFAC away from home
EBD little away form home
FACE away from home
GBDF far away from home
ACEG home
BDFA far from home


you have 2 chords I and V (home away)
the other chords are just representations or options or substitutions that have their own flavor.

CEGB=EGBD=ACEG home
DFAC=FACE slight away
GBDF=BDFA away

ALL of this is in the context of the note and chord C

so a KEY is a detailed version of a note.

the 7 chords are really 2 functionally

and the 2 are tension and release ( movement)
----------------------------------

NEXT a KEY is a small thing same size as a note.

there is a way keys connect to each other just like a way notes connect to each other.









All i am trying to do is assist and help or inspire( even if a person finds out about a little new aspect they were not familiar with can make their whole bigger picture clearer)
So yes all the things you mentioned are key but every person alive already does those they have to and yet still are missing the theory understanding.(maybe they don't want or need to know more too)
most people don't know that jazz theory ( or any music theory knowledge)can be applied to anything any genre at any time.

and lastly, the things you mentioned which people already do no issues cannot be improved upon by me in text form on this forum in anyway.

 

Last edited: May 9, 2018

Don't blame Music schools that much MMJ. I have studied functionnal harmony and music more than 30 years ago, like a few people here who sure did the same. Theory is just a tool, just that ! I know you're trying to help out people here but teaching it is not made to complicate things, nor to confuse people. The most important thing is playing and sharing music with other musicians. That is how we learn the most about music in general and Jazz in particular.
Listen to Biréli Lagrène (just an example), he doesn't read music and know nothing about harmony. Would you tell me he is a bad musician cause he doesn't ?

 

Can somebody please please please please tell all of us that are struggling & suffering. The answer to a more important question: how the hell do you STOP playing jazz? It's a curse bordering on an affliction! Grrrrrrr.... XD

As well as being plain awesome, he kinda teaches in the laid-back style ya (automatically) really enjoy! Despite his frustration leaking out, he's still charming af! I'd recd listening as a great starting point, and not too technical for simple-minded wannabes liek me. Gives great, genuinely useful advice - even the "and" stuff is kinda: yeah you really should know that. (Also, more *ahem* easy to get into than pages of alphabet soup? Sry MMJ..)

 

look.

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biréli_Lagrène

you have made a false demonstrably false statement here..

not ONLY DOES he know a lot about harmony , he learned it when he was 4 years old!
(this means he learned harmony as he learned his spoken language)
this means the correct statement to be made about the facts surrounding him are

He knows harmony as well as he knows his spoken language
( A much higher level than most of us .)

your statement ,

is direct opposite of the truth.

of course, so how do you do that?
by having no knowledge of how music works?


its like saying the most important thing for a brain surgeon is to go out there and remove tumors and save lives!

yes of course!

that is why they have to study the brain for 10 years so that they can go out and do just that.

don't get me wrong nobody should be forced to learn how music works against their will, while being prevented from "going out and playing"
that is not my position, to tie you to a chair and force you to read my threads so that you cannot leave your house and play jazz at a night club.

my position is to put this information for those seeking it and not being able to find it.
I was once seeking this information and I could not find it,
so eventually when i learned how music works i wanted to give others that seeking it out right now a chance to have it that's all buddy.

 

Last edited: May 10, 2018

It seems like you don't know how to read a simple language so how do you want to understand music, what a pity !! loll

For the people who are interested about music and theory, there are lots of great books on AZ

 

this is a forum where mostly you will READ.
if you would like please post your solos, please do. but dont pressure and demand stuff from other members.

just as expected you are now escalating and starting with the derogatory speech.

if you dont plan on adding to the threads topic in a constructive respectful way then its better you let it be.
hiding futile aggression with smileys is pointless. we dont need to go down this road again.

 

Last edited: May 11, 2018

@EddieXx
1. I didn't demand him anything, I was just asking a simple question;
2. His answer about Biréli Lagréne was a non-sense, intellectually dishonest and pretty disrespecful as he considers himself as an "expert" so no problem lol . I have met Biréli years ago and have been talking about that with him (better than Wikipedia for sure);
3. If he is an expert, he should publish books about music theory instead of posting youtube and google stuff (anyone can do it);
4. If I hear you well, demanding is not appropriate but you did;
5. Sharing is caring but not with everyone and don't worry I don't plan to post anything anymore on this thread.

Bye

 

Last edited: May 12, 2018

bye

 

Funniest sentence award.

 

Albert Einstein is right: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe"

 

To defend one’s own stupidity with a quote from Einstein is... odd.

 

Since we're at Einstein right now, that's my favorite quote and it fits in perfectly with all idol worshipers wherever they appear:

 

@MMJ2017 thank you for your effort and knowledge! I love this thread!

 

I think this leads to the point. For cars there are service manuals telling you exactly what to do to get your work done.
It is well defined when a car is broken and when it's in perfect condition. "Repair theory" tells you how to transform your car from one state to another.
Music theory is completely different. Though that seems to be a widespread believe, its goal is not to tell you how to improve your music making skills.
Theory is just looking at existing (mostly very old) music and trying to find pattern used. Sure over the years some textbooks were written to tell pupils how to write in a certain style. But they just explained (more or less succesfull) how that style of music was written in the past. Sure it's not a bad thing to explore tradition, but the theory of todays music will be written years after the music itself, not now.
Music theory is all about history, and I think it's important to avoid the impression that it could work as a set of rules for todays struggling composers. (And if you're trying to follow rules for success you better do that car repair thing anyway. )
Sure you can develop your concept how to write as some composers did in the past and teach it to others. But that would not be music theory but trying to found a school of composition. Very few have been successful with that, and it doesn't hurt if you are a big name composer in this case.

TLDR:
Describing patterns in historical music -> Music Theory
Making a set of rules how to write/play -> Founding a school

 

I respect your position on this , I believe it is a unique one.
My position regarding music theory is different to that one you have described.

Music theory to me is "how music works"

I disagree, however I'm not speaking about the type of music theory you might be. (not just one theory or aspect of music there are many
)
What i present on these "music theory" threads is not special terms that were invented and listing sates and historical
and musical staffs and special symbols all THAT type of music theory.

I am referring to ( and presenting on these threads)
one aspect of "music theory"

mainly "how music works:"

music is a language (many actually)

you have tonal, modal, polytonal and atonal theories
but lets just take the first to learn "tonal music language"

there is a way it works for real, in this reality we were born into .
its based on the mathematics ( you pre-suppose 12 tone ET )

you have consonance and dissonance
you have harmony and melody and rhythm ( rhythm is melody in super slow motion)
you have a KEY (means center point) then you have 7 notes each one create unique chord and mode but ALL seven repr4esent only 2 functions tension or release.
you can express melody or harmony ( multiple melodies) through tension and release

all these things work a specific way ,

that way which it all works (including every possible note chance and chord change and what feeling it creates)
is the kind of "music theory" i present on these threads. ( the connection to knowing and doing)

that IS the goal, there can be no OTHER goal, plus there is no other way to accomplish MAKING music itself EXCEPT- accidentally writing music that matches the way with how it really wors for real were you randomly guessed at making music BUT it accidentally perfectly matched up to how music really works.
--------------------------------------------------
now there is this other totally different aspect of human culture--

when you talk about

there is nothing about "today's music" significant here.
music theory (the portion as i have described) 100 percent covers a song from any time period,, there is nothing about the date which a song comes out that is significant related to music theory, because music theory is "the way music works"


NOW you might be saying "wait a minute all these synth sounds and electronic drums didn't exist until recently so they need a new music theory!"

I would say NO! , the reason is that you are talking about ""timbre"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbre
the music theory i am describing is NOT "the way things sound"
its the way music works (structurally)


a melody played on 25 different instruments is identical in the "music theory" aspect.
ALL you have changed is "timbre"


now going back to "todays" music or you can say music in 45,000 years.
yes a LARGE portion of what is called MUSIC nowadays is only music in the use of the slang term.
music is a word we use culturally NOW to mean
" i made a collection of soundwaves over time, which is an artistic expression just by principle of making sounds"

but that is only the cultural aspect, another example this idea of making money with music.
there is no connection to making music and making money. ( that is a cultural thing)

Imagine if every time you spoke a sentence you thought ( this process of me forming sentences in thought intrinsically points to peices of paper with ink stamped on it being sent to a box nailed to my house with numberws on the front, which a metal box a guys drives drops it off to me"

just some food for thought.


to sum up my position on music theory.

the specific type of music theory which is relevant to my threads here, is "the way music actually works"
getting the knowledge of how the thing called "music" into your mind in a way you can understand how IT works, in order to make music with.


as far as the rest of aspects of music theory like history and symbols and names and dates i love them in a personal sense of study and research and to inform myself.( but my threads here are the farthest thing from personal, they are not about the person I am they are about the knowledge of music being shared)


what is provocative about this statement he is referring to (tonal music language)music theory being a language itself.
------------------------------------------------
For example in the KEY of C major you have 3 chords with modes that are consonant (home)

ACEG with mode of ABCDEFG
CEGB with mode of CDEFGAB
EGBD with mode of ABCDEFG

if you see a chord chart displaying CEGB
you can play ANY of these 3 chords, any portion of the 3 scales and stacking of melodies which outlines any of the 3 chords or modes becuase the structure is HOME


GBDF with mode of GABCDEF
BDFA with mode of BCDEFGA
DFAC with mode of DEFGABC
FACE with mode of FGABCDE

next in the KEY of C major you have 4 chords with modes that are dissonant
if you see a chord chart displaying G7
you can play ANY of these 4 chords, any portion of the 4 scales and stacking of melodies which outlines any of the 4 chords or modes because the structure is "AWAY from HOME)
or "tension"

this is "how music works"

this is what is meant by " the notes you don't play"

music theory is not about what you hear on the final recording or what decision you make in a moment to play a specific thing.
MUSIC THEORY is EVERY POSSIBLE note change and chord chance and the knowledge of why they move that way what feeling it will create THAT is music theory.
and from my perspective you can rely on this to "inform your music making ability" or you rely on
rolling a dice and expecting it to always land on the right number. guessing and doing on accident is not art or expression THAT is farting into a plastic cup and calling it art.

ANYTHING that is REAL ( a part of reality)
has a "way things actually work"

music itself exists in reality, there is a way it actually works.
if you learn the knowledge of every possible note and chord change and what each change accomplishes and what response in humans each note and chord change has, THEN you can improve your music making abilities 100 percent with zero chance of "writers block" ever again.

IF you don't learn how music works, then you have to randomly make sounds which accidentally MUST come out sounding great ( to you) and expressing yourself .
what arte the chances of accidentally doing that>?

you have 2 choices, knowledge or ignorance of music as a method of being a maker of music which do YOU choose?

I believe YOUR idea of what music theory is, is an "outsiders" perspective, in other words from the outside looking in. but things are not always what they appear to be driving by and looking at them on the surface.

This is like saying the "theory of gravity""
is just a bunch of words created throughout history describing concepts people invented.
well you just picked the least important aspects of the theory of gravity ,
the important aspect is the theory of gravity is" the way gravity actually works
everything in the theory of gravity is a description of how it actually works in reality itself.

music theory is the same way.

yes we invented words and language to communicate with. but not significant here.
yes things happened in history ( interesting but not importnat)
yes specific people found out things and names terms ( who cares)\
what matters about music theory is the aspect of it which counts.
just like the theory of gravity, music theory demonstrably explains the way music works in real life, how every single noye and chord change works and what outcome will the listener experience by choosing any specific note change o e or chord change.

by studying music theory you can study and experience every possibility of what can has or ever be done with notes chords melody and harmony.

IF you play every possibility and every combination of notes in your head any moment you go to choose any specifc note change or chord chane you will know if it is the one to best ex[ress yourself in THAT moment.
if you have ignorance of all these and rely on random chance you will choose something with no connection to your feelings in any way 99.9percent of the time.

not sure about anyone else but when I myself ask what type of knowledge would i need to obtain IF i wanted to make better music? this is the exact criteria it would have to have, and nothing besides music theory meets this criteria.



Thank you for sharing here! great to speak with you my friend on this lovely subject i had a great time communicating with you.

 

Last edited: Jun 27, 2018