Double dithering

Discussion in 'Mixing and Mastering' started by Wolfang, Apr 8, 2021.

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  1. Wolfang

    Wolfang Kapellmeister

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    In S1 advanced option, you can find an option that you can turn on/off the dithering.
    In the mastering process, I use Ozone 9 and it also offers the dithering option. I also use a vintage tape plugin that adds the analog sound(Then it can be triple dithering). So, I'm confused.

    If I turn on all of the above, what will happen? Is it ok use every dithering option or should I use only one?

     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  2. MrLyannMusic

    MrLyannMusic Rock Star

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    One dithering is necessary, but i don't think you understand what dithering is in the first place... if you ask me, if many plugins in your chain do offer dithering disable all but the last one in the chain... that being said, you have to understand that using dithering should only be reserved when you're downgrading from wav to mp3 files, still, i don't think it is nessacary nowadays, as it is only needed when you're rendering 16bit files, as we generally do render in 24bit try to avoid it.

    if you're still not convinced, try the different option Ozone 9 offers and see if there's an audible change or if it improves your tracks at all, if it does see what works, if it does not just ignore it.
     
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  3. Wolfang

    Wolfang Kapellmeister

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    Thx, I understand only a single dithering necessary. Then what about the tape machine? If I add it, shouldn't I need to use dithering?
     
  4. MrLyannMusic

    MrLyannMusic Rock Star

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    There is a difference between dithering and oversampling, while oversamlping is necessary when dealing with any sort of saturation or distortion or harmonic distortion (generated by any sort of a saturation plugin), such as what's happening with a tape machine, and it's generally related to mixing phase of a production, dithering has to do with rendering and as i said earlier, dithering is only needed when downgrading a fully rendered mix or a track, if you render a track to send to a master engineer DO not apply any sort of dithering, but if you're trying to master your own work, only do apply it at last phase when you're rendering your mp3 file.
     
  5. clone

    clone Ultrasonic

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    I'm confused by the "tape machine"'s importance. It is just another effect added into the file, while dither should be across the entire file if you are going to use it. The Airwindows Dither plugins are nice and free, if you can use AU plugins. https://www.airwindows.com/?s=dither
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  6. mild pump milk

    mild pump milk Russian Milk Drunkard

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    Always add dither when reduce bit depth from float to fixed/int.
    Both for 24 and 16 bit.
    Even 24 bit should be 24 bit dithered, otherwise it will be truncated from 32/64 bit float. Also, your audio always should be 24 bit dithered in last chain of monitoring and/or for posterior analog hardware processing, because your DAC will output audio as 24 bit always, doesn't mean even if project settings are 64 bit float, these settings are just for project, internally, but output will be 24 bit, so you decide 24 bit truncate or 24 bit dither.

    Dither once. Dithering is the last before rendering. 16 bit dithering for 16 bit render, 24 bit dithering is for 24 bit render.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  7. mild pump milk

    mild pump milk Russian Milk Drunkard

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    Read my post above. 24 bit will not kill truncation, it just reduces too much. Use dither for 16 and 24 bit. If your DAC is 24 bit, use dither.
    Do not dither for mp3. Dithering is the last in chain of processing before bit reduction. So, any posterior processing will require dithering. "Lossifying" to mp3 is an audio quality processing and will cause changes in signal, so how you can do it before dithering? Even mp3 may be a floating point, not all supports it. So, dither is useless here and will be just as extra noise here.
    As you said further, for mastering engineer you must send 24 bit dithered (if you don't dither, you send 24 bit truncated). Truncation is louder than dithering noise, and this cut tails. Dithering is not masking truncation, it is a noise to avoid truncation. It is better to send 32 bit float or even 32 bit fixed/int or 64 bit audio without dithering. Send as high as you can. But fixed point like 16,24 should be dithered always.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  8. SineWave

    SineWave Audiosexual

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    For as long as your audio is 32bit or 64bit, you don't need to worry about dithering because truncation of audio happens at such low level it's completely imperceptible. All DAWs mix at least 32bit floating point or integral audio, thus no need to dither anything when you're mixing.

    MP3s are best made directly from your master output and since MP3 or any other lossy codecs don't have bit-depth, and encode audio psycho-acoustically, dither is unnecessary so you can turn it off even in the master limiter which is usually the last plugin in the chain. Dithering has to be applied last anyway, if needed.

    So when do you need to use dither? When you're converting your 32bit or 64bit files into 24bit or 16bit files. For 24bit files it isn't so critical, actually. as truncation happens at a very low level [-144dB], but I do it anyway and use a simple TPDF dither for that. It's a kind of flat dither without any fancy noise shaping. Noise shaping is maybe needed when you're converting into 16bit files since then truncation and dither noise becomes audible down at -96dB, which is still pretty low, but you really don't want to hear any truncation on any level.

    Try to make a dithering experiment with a 32bit audio file to hear what we're talking about here. Truncate it to 8-bit with and without dithering, the difference will be very obvious.

    I have just kinda summed up what Mild Pump Milk said... :wink:

    Cheers!
     
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  9. junh1024

    junh1024 Rock Star

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    Yes, but music is usually exported at 16b or more, so low-depth artefacts will be much reduced.

    Try dithered 16b & undithered 16b. You'll be hard-pressed to tell the difference. 16b also has a noise floor of -120dB when there is a signal >-96dB.

    Your vintage FX adds noise, and whatever else in your song is probably adding noise (functioning as a RPDF natural dither), so you'll prolly not need dither (& you won't be able to tell the difference anyway).
     
  10. nctechno

    nctechno Member

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    for my understanding dithering is only required IF the exported file is going to get converted again by e.g. the distributor as it increases dynamic range after conversion right? if your dac is using 24 bit output then there would be a conversion DAW -> DAC 32 float -> 24 int where for my understanding no dither is required for 32bit so i dont get it
     
  11. Smoove Grooves

    Smoove Grooves Audiosexual

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    What does a source file have to do with your dac? (Rhetorical!)
    Try a different type of understanding! lol.
     
  12. nctechno

    nctechno Member

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    sorry i didnt even want to quote your post but

    he is suggesting to dither for monitoring because of the dac... maybe my post makes more sense now

    ->for my understanding dithering is only required IF the exported file is going to get converted again by e.g. the distributor as it increases dynamic range after conversion right? if your dac is using 24 bit output then there would be a conversion DAW -> DAC 32 float -> 24 int where for my understanding no dither is required for 32bit so i dont get it
     
  13. Smoove Grooves

    Smoove Grooves Audiosexual

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    I don't see he is saying that at all. And it wouldn't make sense to me either. But I may be wrong.
    As said, those settings are internal for the project anyway.
    Your dac doesn't output beyond 24 Bit.
    I mean I know he's Russian speaking English, but that seems like what he is saying too.
     
  14. MrLyannMusic

    MrLyannMusic Rock Star

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    Guys i found the solution,

    Don't Dither... like at all. :rofl:
     
  15. Smoove Grooves

    Smoove Grooves Audiosexual

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    Look guys, I think we all know that just like Waves NLS, more of something is always better? Surely?



    edit: perhaps not obvious this was a joke?
    Must remember to write 'lol' after everything...
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021 at 5:55 PM
  16. mild pump milk

    mild pump milk Russian Milk Drunkard

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    Your DAC is not 32 bit float, nctechno. It is 24 bit output.
    Inside DAW there is processing up to 64 bit float double precision blah blah, but what you hear from your output is 24 bit maximum, and if you are going to process your audio from digital to analog, you must use 24 bit dithering in the end of chain, because you go from float point to 24 bit and this will cause truncate if there is no dithering.... If dithering is used you hear and process in analog all your audio in true 24 bit with no truncation.
    Even 32 bit int should be 24 bit dithered, because it may be truncated by your 24 bit DAC.

    Just imagine in your head, that CD is 16 bit and it must be dithered, because bit depth is reduced.
    Just imagine same with your DAC 24 bit maximum output and it must be dithered too, because bit depth is reduced. Inside your computer it may be 32bit fixed/32bit float/64bit etc in higher quality, but FX Monitoring is better with 24 bit dithering last in the chain (just for listening, monitoring) and when you are going to master your audio with analog gear, it will not be truncated, dithering gives maximum quality for your 24 bit. It will not hurt at all, it will save quality. But reallyit is dilemma, either send to mastering engineer 24 bit dither or higher bit depth audio. Will he dither 64 bit audio before going fron PC to analog?

    And second, ask Bob Ohlsson or maybe Alex Lukin, they will answer in details.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
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  17. Smoove Grooves

    Smoove Grooves Audiosexual

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    Uh, it's fine! lol. You said something (wrong!), I quoted it to help you and responded, so it is expected you may quote me when replying to what I said! haha.
    Oh god. Maybe you have seen the few times when somebody is trolling and just tags me in to argue with me?
    And I tell them they didn't have to tag me.
    That's when it's bad etiquette to quote someone!
     
  18. Ŧยχøя

    Ŧยχøя Kapellmeister

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    Best Answer
    Dither is only needed when converting from a High Bit Depth, to a Lower bit depth.

    For instance, going from 32bit/FP to -> 24bit, 16bit, 8bit..
    or say from 24bit to 16bit etc.

    Besides that, there's no other reason to use Dithering these days.

    The Master Renders from your DAW don't need dithering,
    as long as you respect the bit depth of the sources (audio tracks/vsti).

    If your recorded tracks are 24bit, and you're rendering to 32bit FP, 32bit or 24 bit,
    you don't need dithering.

    Dithering will only be necessary if you rendered directly to 16bit or less.

    But for that you're better off rendering the thing at 32bit FP/32bit/24bit,
    and then generating the 16bit Dithered files from the actual 32/24bit Masters.


    -When converting the Master to MP3/OGG, dithering is not necessary:
    MP3/OGG codecs have their own truncation filters,
    and they will actually playback/represent a 32bit file without a problem.

    When you dither a 32/24bit file to 16bit you're introducing low level Noise in the file.

    Then if you convert the 16bit file to MP3, you're introducing that noise unnecessarily,
    because the codec doesn't need it, it CAN represent 32bit files!

    Therefore MP3/OGG files should be generated from the undithered 32/24bit Master.


    -The same applies for Soundcloud/YT etc,
    they have their own Codecs that convert the files to whatever format they use..

    So you don't need to dither the files, and introduce useless Noise.
    Just upload the 32/24bit masters and let their codecs do their thing..

    If you want their codecs to have less work, or do a more "efficient" work, (philosophically speaking)
    upload undithered 24bit Masters.

    (as long as you don't record your instruments/tracks at Real 32bit/FP,
    then your 24 bit master will also need Dither/truncation..)

    -I know it's a bit counter intuitive, and I don't have the time to link my sources right now,
    but it's the way it works, look it up! :yes:
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  19. mild pump milk

    mild pump milk Russian Milk Drunkard

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    The interesting fact that I found mp3 codec which work fine with dithering, and saves low volume audio, and does almost no lossifying up to 20kHz. It is not lame mp3. It is rare, old and supported by several players, converters. Recently I was wondered when I uploaded such mp3 file in RX.
    So, some lossy codecs remain dithering
     
  20. Smoove Grooves

    Smoove Grooves Audiosexual

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    Lame mp3 is the best encoder, right?
     
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