Does anyone agree with this EQ move using Shreddage and amp Sims?

Discussion in 'Rock, Metal' started by garyg199, Jul 12, 2020.

  1. korte1975

    korte1975 Guest

    i prefer real guitar for electric parts. for acoustic i cheat sometimes and i use omnisphere
     
  2. Xupito

    Xupito Audiosexual

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    Yeah, the TS808/TS9 pedals are almost a high-gain standard. One of the first tips I learned. With more tone than gain/drive.
     
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  3. digitaldragon

    digitaldragon Audiosexual

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    To help with fizzy sound from real amped stuff, I run through a tape sim. In particular I use the CDSoundmaster R2R Wollensak preset. It both fattens up and defizzes distorted guitars. I believe Taupe also has a Wollensak in it's offerings.
    You could experiment with different tape sims, though, doesn't have to be the Wollensak, that's just the one I like. The first time I put it on a track I had been eqing to death, I turned the eq off, and the sound with the Wollensak was what I had been chasing.
     
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  4. Blue

    Blue Audiosexual

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    Hi,did you try the Boss NS-2 after a synthesizer,before a distortion pedal?I'm looking for a noise gate for my synths.
     
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  5. Death Thash Doom

    Death Thash Doom Platinum Record

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    You know I have tried that and with a mono synth, it did a good job (got rid of the buzz, hum, hiss and no microphonic squealing came out, That was on a friend's Minimoog and also his bug brand modular.
    When it comes to full-on distortion pedals the NS-2 works better just before the distortion or gated fuzz...etc. If you put a distortion in the NS-2's loop like a boost or lower gain drive then it will eat into the wanted signal in the exact way one would not want a noise suppressor/gate to do.
    In order to remind myself how effective it is I'll do it again since it's been a few years, I can capture the sounds of the following synths along with some I'm forgetting with a distortion pedal after the output both without and with an NS-2 in play for comparison then I'd share the resulting examples here so yourself and anyone else interested can check it out, This will be when I visit my good friend's again in a few weeks, most likely a bit less (which is where I have just got back home from).
    I can try it and record the results of IIRC a Waldorf Blofeld, a Korg microkorg & a Triton (I think it is), a Yamaha TX81Z amongst others which I forget Blue
    I'm not very knowledgable when it comes to synthesizers which I don't mind being totally honest about, It's my weakest area I'd say but I'm improving and I understand the various types, which are worth a small fortune and such. I'm not a very good keys player which likely plays into it, I do not own a hardware synth otherwise I'd do it right now.

    Is there any specific distortion pedal which you have in mind in case I have one or something that is similar?
    Hope that will be useful to you and as said I can do that if you'd like, Just let me know.

    All the best as always

    Dean
     
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  6. Blue

    Blue Audiosexual

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    Thank you Dean for your kind reply.
    That would be very nice if you could post some examples,if you are not too busy.
    I'm looking since few weeks for a noise gate pedal for my synths (in particular for an old Roland Alpha Juno which is noisy,if I put a distortion pedal behind I hear as much the synth as the noise,horrible) but I'm afraid that the impedance and level of synthesizers are not suitable to guitar noise gates.
    I have only 2 distortion pedal at this time,a Earthquaker Devices Acapulco (insane distortion) and a MXR Distortion+,both are clones DIY.And I will buy soon a Proco RAT.

    Until now I only get bad results sonically with distortion pedals and my synths,because of the noise in first and secondly I don't like much my 2 distortions.That's why I'll try the RAT,it seems to be one of the,or the best distortion with synths.If finally I could get decent results with distortion pedals by using the Boss NS-2,I would try new distortions yet.

    I don't know if I should add a DI to put between the distortion and my audio interface too,for better results.Do you know which DI is nice without costing a arm?Do you think it will sound better or improve something?

    I don't know if a nice Neve preamp would be more suitable than a distortion pedal for overdriving my synths.I'm convinced it won't sound bad with some Neve gear but it's a big amount of cash for a poor producer like me and I don't know if it will be the saturation I'm looking for.I have few stereo synths and drum machines,so I would need 2 preamps at least,it means 1500€ on the used market,without the EQ.

    I'm sorry I'm a noob with guitar gear and preamps and external FXs,I don't play guitar and I don't record much vocals either.I'm in electronic stuff for years and most ITB.
    Sorry for my basic FrEnglish too.:)
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  7. Death Thash Doom

    Death Thash Doom Platinum Record

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    I hear you, I've got a Rat which I'll dig out to use then and I'll just use a few others too blue for some variation.
    If you are wanting more of a "saturation" as can be had via a good mic-pre overdriven then the best not ridiculously overpriced box that I am aware of designed for such tasks is this by JHS Pedals, The colour box https://www.jhspedals.info/colour-box-v2
    It is designed to take any signal you like too from a high impedance guitar or bass guitar's output to line level which is what I assume your synths will be output wise.
    It does a very good job and is very versatile, to the point that you can run any signal you like through it from guitar, bass to synth, mic'd stuff like drums and vocals...etc. So although it is very pricey for an overdrive/distortion pedal, It is neither and would be cheaper than anything by AMS NEVE or NEVE's Portico range. It's worth considering/knowing about even if you aren't wanting to spend that sort of money.
    Regarding a DI box, I'm not that fussy with to be honest, So long as they deliver, I have dirt cheap ones through to Radial's more pricey ones.
    I think what would be best in your situation would be a re-amp box. So that it takes the line-level signal from your synth in one side and then on the other it spits it out a high-impedance signal the other side which is what any guitar/bass amp and pedal expect to see. Then for getting it back into the box you do the same but in reverse by sending the output of your pedals into a high-impedance input which converts it back to line level if that makes sense to you, If your audio interface has a dedicated "Hi-Z" high-impedance input then you can use that for example rather than buy a full re-amp kit as you only need the first box to transform a line-level signal into a high-impedance one.
    This is a good quality reamping setup as mentioned that is great quality at a fairly decent price, There are other options available, So it's always worth shopping around, This is just an example which I come across the most: https://www.thomann.de/gb/radial_engineering_reamp_kit_reamping_kit.htm
    That JHS colour box V2 features everything you would need I think, Which is why it becomes less overpriced/expensive as it does a number of different things which you'd end up buying day at least three, perhaps more boxes/pedals in order to achieve.
    So yeah I shall do that with a RAT distortion along with some others that are along the lines of what you listed plus a few others to give a nice variety and record the results as said and share them here when I can my friend.
    I hope that makes sense to you and helps. I might have to hit you up for some answers regarding synths at some point as I do plan on getting myself at least one fairly nice hardware synthesizer in the future. The only hardware synths that I have really experience with are a few that I have had and one I still have which is very handy for using with a trigger feed from a kick/bass drum to really add some extra big beef in the low-end and/or some additional attack/click in the 5kHz to 7kHz range to it should it be need any, It's a Vermona Kick Lancet, So not exactly complex at all. I also use my trusty old Alesis SR16 amongst a few others sometimes using the trigger signals to help to add extra weight and/or crack/snap to things.
    Still, I don't see them as being proper synthesizer instruments or sound modules in the way say an SH-101, Juno, Minimoog, Korg MS20, JV1080 and so on...etc. are.
    Your English is fine Blue, I can understand exactly what you are saying, Well at least I hope I am.
    Regarding a NEVE preamp with EQ, There are nowadays a number of very nice options which get so very close to the sound of a 1073 for example that you wouldn't need to splash out on an original unless you were/are set on having the real thing.
    Here are some examples of what I'm talking about:
    https://www.thomann.de/gb/heritage_audio_ha_73_eq_eilte.htm (About as close as you can get for a lot less than the real thing)
    https://www.thomann.de/gb/warm_audio_wa273.htm (Nice 2-Channel option, Warm Audio's stuff is good IME)
    https://www.thomann.de/gb/warm_audio_tb12_tone_beast_black.htm (Whilst it ain't based on a 1073 or other NEVE preamp, It can be very clean but also has a lot of signal colouring options that go to outright a quite heavy distortion, It's got bags of character if you want it)
    https://www.thomann.de/gb/golden_age_premier_pre_73_dlx.htm (Very nice I find and are very good for the price)
    https://www.thomann.de/gb/golden_age_premier_preq_73.htm (same as above except with EQ and not as high-quality components as the Pre-73 DLXX, Still sounds very damned good at a good/fair price point)
    https://www.thomann.de/gb/golden_age_project_premier_pre_73.htm (The same circuit as the mic/line in the PREQ-73 above)
    https://www.thomann.de/gb/golden_age_project_pre_73_dlx_mkii.htm (Pair of these are very well priced and NEVE-like)
    https://www.thomann.de/gb/golden_age_project_pre_73_mkiii.htm (Price is great and with a pair, you could have a very nice and inexpensive NEVE-like Pre/instrument input, At a price I would have never expected possible)

    Really hope that helps, If I haven't made anything clear and can explain better then please let me know, All the best

    Dean
     
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  8. Trurl

    Trurl Rock Star

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    You know I haven't done it but putting True Iron on a sampled guitar track would probably be terrific.
     
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  9. nyaa13

    nyaa13 Member

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    No, that was me with the two tremolo notes but for Black Metal. Kinda gave up on it. I tried a lot of different things but still can't get it to sound that well. :sad:
     
  10. Blue

    Blue Audiosexual

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    I appreciate all the time and the efforts you spend in your replies,thank you very much Dean.You do help a lot.If I can help you further,don't hesitate a second.I understand you clearly as well!

    I know your Vermona kick and the Alesis SR16.Vermona synths sound cool usually,this Vermona kick must be interesting.At the moment I design my drums with my Dave Smith Tempest.If you're considering a versatile synth in the future,the Tempest may be a wise choice.It is an hybrid analog/digital drum machine with built in samples+many single cycle waveforms of the venerable Prophet VS.So the Tempest has 2 DCOs+1 Suboscillator + 2 digital oscillators (which each of the 2 can load a drum sample or a single cycle waveform either).You can use it as a drum machine or as a 6 voices polysynth.It has cheap quality pots and encoders,but beside that it is an awesome machine with lot of modulations.However don't think making Moog basslines with it.

    So for my 'problem',I was considering a Reamp box some months ago,but after some investigations on forums,some people told me that it's an unnecessary box.According to them if I lower much the output level of a synthsizer,its output level is not far from a guitar level (Hi impedance) ,because the output pot of a synthesizer is nothing but a variable resistor,so according to some people if you lower the level it would be fine.I don't know who I must believe...I will try the Boss NS-2 and the Proco RAT and judge by myself further.It it still sounds like *hit,I will consider the reamp box again.
    I will have a closer look and listen some exemples of the JHS pedal,this little box looks cool,I like these unique features.It's on my favorites right now!

    Do you have some booster pedals too,like the Moog MF Boost or the Bass BB Preamp??I'm curious about this kind of pedals with synths too,they seem very versatile,from saturation to distortion;and not overpriced.

    Are you used to the different preamps you have listed here ? Do they sound exactly like a Neve (I'm not expecting miracles in this world btw,just for information) ? What about the build quality?
    I read some people complaining about Warm audio (read some user feedbacks on Thomann if you wish,for instance,one guy says he received 2 or 3 defective units) and Golden Age about their quality.That's why I prefer spending more money on a used Neve or BAE and get something very nice sounding and reliable on the long term.


    I have many questions,if you don't have some free time,no problem Dean.

    Cheers,

    Jérôme
     
  11. Xupito

    Xupito Audiosexual

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    Oh, I thought you had found a tutorial that resolved the issue.
    Actually I still keep the project trying it myself but man, it's hard. Especially with the lower one.
     
  12. nyaa13

    nyaa13 Member

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    No sadly it didn't help. If you noticed carefully I wrote as my last message that this particular tutorial worked nicely with some recorded DI samples that the uploader provided but once I finished making it and replaced the samples with Kontakt Shreddage it probably wouldn't be as effective because the samples from Shreddage aren't as good and my fear was proven to be true after all. My version sounded way better than even his professional mix simply because I was tweaking it and fine tuning it for 3 months+. After so many times trying I believe it is just a combination of bad tremolo samples from Shreddage and amp sims not doing their job too well. I mean whatever amp sim you try with them it won't matter. I even tried downloading a demo of Neural DSP stuff that are supposed to be the best amp sims and the result is very similar to other amp sims. Correct me if I am wrong but amp sims are still far from the real thing especially if you aren't using a real guitar with a good audio interface. I am not that experienced with real amps but from my emulated experience by watching videos and stuff I don't think that real amps produce as much hiss and fizz as amp sims. When I am trying to compose any other genre I can get a pretty good quality of sound. Unless if I just suck when it comes to mixing Shreddage stuff. I have to say though that you can work with the other articulation samples and there already nice songs made with the other articulations out there in Youtube etc except Tremolo. For example for a clean solo I can make it sound pretty close to the real thing. Djent is the easiest of all because you won't mind that Shreddage can sound a bit robotic or machine gun like at some times. It fits the genre well, although for the most part you can cover that by fixing midi velocities and covering imperfections with drums and bass. But I have yet to see a song with decent quality using the tremolo articulations uploaded anywhere online. Also if you pay close attention you will notice that the volume of most sample songs for advertising is low on purpose to hide the imperfections of samples, with very few exceptions. Best try so far I saw online is that one. I even downloaded Studio One to check what he did.
    . Although he deleted lots of the fx plugins he had on his tutorial so the sound on his tutorial project won't be as clean as on his video. It's a shame cause that could really help if he left all his settings intact. Btw @garyg199 that tutorial can pretty likely help you a lot with what you are trying to achieve probably and pretty much everyone else.
     
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  13. Xupito

    Xupito Audiosexual

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    Yeah, I agree. Shreddages sound great but the tremolo articulation is probably the only one that sounds bad.
    And interestingly enough is one of the biggest ones in sample size. They even sampled it with different frequencies. Really weird.
     
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  14. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

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    Great post. :like: :like:
     
  15. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

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    Even if this is true (and I don't know that), I would test if a heavily lowered output affects the sound quality (punch).
     
  16. Blue

    Blue Audiosexual

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    Yes,lowering the output level does affect undeniably the distortion of the pedal.I mean the distortion pedals work better when I lower the output level nearly to the minimum.The problem is that lowering as much the output of the synth makes it noisy,so there is my problem of noise with synths I was talking about in my previous posts,and why I'm after a noise gate pedal.
    A reamp box would probably be the ideal solution.Maybe this one,the Radial Engineering ProRMP;it is just a basic reamp box without any DI box in addition,because my audio interface has already a pair of high impedance inputs:
    https://www.thomann.de/fr/radial_pro_rmp.htm

    I'm surprised that not many people discuss about using reamp boxes when using synths on internet...I think I will start to find a Boss NS-2 (noise gate) and a RAT distortion.Then If I'm not satisfied with the sound I will look for a reamp box.

    Thank you No Avenger.
     
  17. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

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    Err, yes, that much is clear.
    I was talking about th synth's sound, its punch. I can imagine it will not be the same as when fully turned up, but I've never really test and compared it.
    And this
    is ofc an annoying problem. But since the SNR is getting worse with lower(ing the) output, I'm not sure if a gate can compensate for this. :unsure:
     
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  18. Blue

    Blue Audiosexual

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    No the synth sounds 'the same ' with a lower volume.
    The noise gate will not remove the noise ofc.The biggest noise issue arise betwwen the notes,when the synth is not working.The distortion amplifies the noise as hell then,so the noise gate will shut the noise before it is amplified by the distortion.My typical chain will be:synth>noise gate>distortion>maybe delay,reverb etc>Hi impedance input of my audio interface.
    If it still isn't good,'ll try a reamp box between the synth and the noise gate.

    What would you do personally?

    This reamp box does the job fine as well,after some investigations on internet,for 66€ :
    https://www.thomann.de/fr/palmer_reamping_box_daccapo.htm
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  19. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

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    [​IMG] That much is also clear, but nice that you explained it again, you never know who's reading. :winker:

    Mh, depends if you need it live or not and what amount of work you're willing to do.
    The best result would be to first record the dry synth (with a simple vst distortion for the right feeling), maybe even get a noise print and de-noise it, and then rerecord it with with adjusted fader level (with which you would lower the noise too) through the stomp distortion (and other FX if you want).
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  20. Blue

    Blue Audiosexual

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    HaHa,sorry,my little brain thinks too much about the English translation and bugs sometimes...I meant when the synth is playing,the noise isn't really noticeable with the distortion on top.

    Ok thanks for your ideas,but a de-noiser isn't the solution I guess,given the big pile of noise.I think I will try a reamp box in addition of the noise gate,some can be found for pretty cheap.In a french forum some people tell the reamp box is the way to go when using guitar effects with synths or any electronic instruments.


    Sorry for the OP for all these off topic comments.:bow:
     
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