To me, if you really reason in those terms then if you "just" play an instrument but others people music, written by others, than that makes you a performer, and not fully a musician.. The musician in this story is also (mostly ?) the guy that composed the music the performer is playing, not the performer himself. And also what to say about composers ? I don't think Mozart or Beethoven plaid their own concertos, but what then ??? They where only musicians when they plaid their own stuffs...That doesn't make much sense. And the guy who composes everything in his daw, no loops or midi clips done by others, but he just doesn't play any instruments, he just composes, uses midi clips that he realises himself, and this guy isn't a musician ? He makes music, he just doesn't play it...Then what ? He is surely not a performer, but there is no doubt in my mind that he is a musician.
It's all a bit semantic but I guess you catch my drift. There are many roads that lead to music. If you make music, then you make music. The rest is just litteraly noise. To be a musician you don't have to be a performer, you don't have to master an instrument, you have to make music. Mastering an instruments or several isn't the only path to that. Not any more.

 

Not that any of this really matters, who is what, when and whom, I'm just trying to sort it out in my head while thinking out loud. My own opinion is like my asshole...and I got one!

 

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Yeah I don't really have any firm opinion on the matter either...It's just a fun pondering.

 

I'm an "universal communist"

In this vision, art was created when human kind was broken, separated in several parts.
Same about philosophy.
It is just a compensation for the initial loss.

When you are happy, and in perfect union with the universe and human kind, you don't need to speak about philosophy or create art : YOU are art and philosophy, all in one.
Something was broken thousands years ago. And we are all running to find it again.

And frankly...there is no "cheating" when something is broken in you. The only cheating is called : EGO
When i read ppl complaining about this or that, i know it is their EGO speaking. Not their "universal human kindness".

Even if "making art", using a computer, is "cheating" because you are just acting like a child with wooden cubes...do it.
Be a child. Because everything is possible for a child

PS : pour les francophones, la pensée radicale de la lutte contre la marchandisation du monde

 

I'm not sure, I don't use Ableton. I just use ChordPulse to audition the different chords, and then build progressions. I only use the single chords, and not the fancy patterns. Then I export it out to midi and import into Reaper. It's pretty neat for finding different flavors and variations, etc.

 

I guess then any person who uses music in their art or in their attempt to do so is a musician.

 

there is a difference between a musician, a working musician, the aspiring musician, an enthusiest, a programmer, a composer, a DJ (who by the way unless are making their own beats usually don't call themselves musicians), etc. I know great classically trained players who can't write a song at all, even with loops. If anyone thinks its easy to write a song using loops I challenge you to try, even with a loop kit. You'd probably end up with some hot garbage that you'd never listen to once you're finished.

 

To fellow instrumentalists and beat makers alike. Skill skill and more skill is what it takes. (Talent is a given must so i don't mention that)
The only thing a computer program can maybe do is make a newcomer sound not so noob to the ears of the uninitiated.
IE: If you can't sing no Melodyne will help you. Singing is not just about hitting the right notes in the correct timing. It's about expression, sentiment and adding weight to the certain lyrics. You may call it a performance. Lose these from any interpretation of a song and it falls flat no matter how correct are the notes sung. Good singers can sing mediocre or even crap lyrics and have their audience in awe, because they may add the aforementioned (and many more) qualities to an otherwise bland song.
Automated processes like chord players/arpeggiators are presets. They are only there to help and can never be the main attraction or indicate the fundamental structure of a track/song. Unless of course your audience is your cousin and his stoned mates.
For the most part of the music creation process we are thinking apes. We imitate and re-produce what we 've heard and learned, both conciously and subconsciously.
So, to the fellows who think because they can play and record guitar they are more original than a samplist, think again bro. You didn't invent A minor, and someone else played the Am,F,G or the A,D,E progression etc etc before you. So shut it please. Chances are that gifted samplists like Liam Howlett (The Prodigy) or Norman Cook (Fat Boy Slim) sound more original than 90% of the gtr players i 've heard (and i am a guitarist myself and no, not like Lil Wayne lol). Why ? Because their method of music creation is unconventional and very very personal, so they simply sound unique (not to mention really fkn exciting for most of the time as well).
Also, to the fellows who think they will sample a musical passage like a 2-4 bar chorus/bridge/verse whatever, add a beat and get away with it, think again bro. Someone else has already done that (including yours truly) millions of times over and over. Get creative or stay bland and uninteresting for the rest of your life, it's your call.
EDIT: Copycats will always stain the music scene. For instance i always found Tiesto to be blatantly unoriginal and purely imitating styles others created before him. This doesn't mean he is a bad dj though, he's great because he can rock his crowd anytime, so for the most part his main role is fullfilled. When it comes to the creator role though he falls short imho, and cheesy for the most part.
There is a fine line that distinguishes gifted creators/originators from copycats and sometimes it's lost through the ages as well. It is in our own personal interest to seek and learn and always dig deeper. And from what i 've seen so far, very few will go all the way to the end.
Cheers

 

Last edited: Nov 21, 2017

Sorry for quoting you here as I thought maybe related much to this thread due to its generality.

Please watch this video from one of the best classical music tutors on Youtube. He's talking about the postmodernism, the era we're living in it now and seems to be the last era of all arts' history. Also you can see me at the end of this clip:

Parts of his speech in this video that is worth pondering:
With post-modernism (minimalism as a subset of it), you don't have to know anything. And everyone is equal. In this case, everyone is literally on an equal footing. Everyone can be an art lover. Everyone can be an art critic. So, post-modernism embraces the everyday, the mundane, even the kitsch, and it glorifies it.

In post-modernism, art is the glorification of simple ideas and not fully developing them and dropping them in the middle and starting another simple idea, or art is splicing more simple ideas together to make a whole but it's usually heterogeneous.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2017

on a serious note, I agree most with this

 

I don't know if I can call it cheating, but compared to the normal way of creating music, I:
1. Don't need to know music notation
2. Don't need to learn orchestration to write a symphonic piece
3. Can play any instrument I can imagine with my keyboard (I imagine myself telling to Cesar Frank that I can play and record a church organ at home)
4. Can play any synth sound with a cheap keyboard or guitar without having to buy the hardware
5. Have ready-made rhythm and melody patterns (yes, they are called audio samples and midi files!) which I can play with my Maschine Studio and also edit and rearrange them
6. Don't need to be a soloist in any instrument to play it or write music for it (I feel like a sitar virtuoso with NI India!)
7. Don't need to have human musicians to perform what I compose
8. Don't need to have a real studio to mix my ideas

and many many other things, which make my involvement with music to look like cheating.

On the other hand, what differentiates us from the traditional composers is that everything in the musical creation is depending on us alone and also in the use (or abuse) of machines (computer, hardware ect.) And this involves a lot of work and time.

 

Last edited: Nov 21, 2017

This is a ted talk from Patrick Metzer who coined the term millenial whoop. He also talks about art, virtuosity and even music facilitated by computers from a (sceptical) philosophical viewpoint. So I think this fits well in here.
The whoop is that musical vocal effect, using the "Wa" and "Oh" syllables, in a repeating pattern on the fifth and third notes in a major scale which gained popularity from the 2000s to 2010s pop music. And we all got to know it, wether or not we wanted to.

Artists using the millennial whoop include Katy Perry, Justin Bieber, Kings of Leon, The Lonely Island, will.i.am, Fall Out Boy, Owl City, Carly Rae Jepsen, Demi Lovato, Chvrches, and Andy Grammer.

Edit: I wonder how people who state they " didn't study music all my life to compete with lesser "musical individuals" " cope with the fact that the whoop became so successful..

 

Last edited: Nov 21, 2017

Let's hear @LuckySevens' music!

 

Anyone who makes noise is a musician, and I'm not sure even that is loose enough a definition. There's that whole thing about "everything is music, and everywhere is the best seat" that I go along with, rly. Pointless arguing better or worse, left or right, pointy or round.

Hope ur being ironic? Dictionaries just reflect current usage, they're not arbiters of anything. Logical fallacy: appeal to authority?

 

for myself just making beats isnt enough, i have to perform and play music as a performance to be enough for me.
if i just made beats i would get bored after a year and quit.its not challenging enough its not creative enough fro what i need out of it myself.
becuase when you make beats you just type in the notes thats easy , performing and playing music is 1000 times more difficult but also more emotional and meaningful to the person making a song.

famouslut{Anyone who makes noise is a musician,}

so a 85 year old man farting is a musician?
i would call that LOW standards

music is not the sound you hear it is the language and structure you use to create sound.

 

It's called referencing a standard. Using a dictionary to define a word is as much a fallacy as using a ruler (an authority?) to define an inch.
If you feel your opinion [re. ̶m̶e̶a̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶"̶m̶u̶s̶i̶c̶i̶a̶n̶"̶ the length of an inch] is as relevant/valid as that of the ̶d̶i̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶a̶r̶y̶ Bureau of Weights and Measures (an authority)... well,

 

I have come to the conclusion that using a DAW enables cheating. I composed and arranged a number of songs for a progressive rock band and as is required by this type of music, dexterous playing is paramount. Upon hearing my keyboard prowess I was invited to join them on their next European Tour. I excused myself due to any number of reasons except the real one. I cannot play like I can program. The computer allows me to cheat.

 

We're all normal human not super-human. How many tasks is a normal human able to specialize at? One, Two, Three, ... or Ten? None of these numbers is ∞. You know this is the biggest really for all creatures' lives in the world and the human's society is totally based one this fact. No need to be ashamed of this shortcoming. Machines are for helping us to overcome this imperfection. This is the reason I used receiving assistance by computers in the title. The only reason I don't like about programmed music is relying completely on the computers and yielding highly to them and being heedless of the capabilities inside all of us. In this manner, computers are usually interested on groove making not imposing music creation.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2017

i agree with you, that is why i only make performed music. for instance im just getting the final touches on my guitar pedal board it has 22 pedals a custom power supply i plug one outlet in and have 22 isolated power for each, i have a switcher system for each pedal i program patches so when i hit one button it switches which pedals on and off other buttons on the switcher go into pedal on and off mode independently then i have 3 loopers in different spots and a couple granular options, now i can make a live performance out of my feet and do sound design on the fly all as a performance e off the top of my head. im going through all the options to see the limitless potential it has ( this pedalboard goes into 2 120w tube heads in stereo and 2 (2x12) cabinets) i slowly built it over 3 years.
flight case and all
just one cable in one out and one to plug to power it all. i can use the whole thing combined with playing guitar in the moment ( my 8 string guitar that goes low as bass and still reg guitar range)
use it as one instrument, and create whole symphony of sounds .
its my way of having most fun and expressing, it so much better than just programming note in a daw (to me)

 

Where can you turn them up and actually use them up to their potential? Are you playing Wembley Stadium or something? My 4 watt Vox has my wife commenting on the racket, lol!!! I never get to open up the AC15 'cause I don't play out anymore. 240 watts, that's a lot of juice.