I've been having a long running debate with my brother about this for years now, the difference being between 'Pure' musicians and those of us who use their DAWs and have to compose AND engineer their music. See my brother not only being a prick (joke) is a session musician he goes to wherever and plays whatever and then leaves!!!. He's little knowledge of how his music's even recorded let alone the ins and outs and complexity of eq and compression for example!!!. I don't know how it is for you's, but I've been hearing music differently for a long time now....My brother and I can listen to a piece of music doesn't matter what it is and start discussing various aspects, I don't know reveb on the snare for example, and then the argueing starts 'I've been playing guitar in studios and on stage since before you owned a computer' is the usual comment from my brother. Which might well be true but I know how ignorant he is to the engineering side of music production, basically he knows fxxk all!!!. He's an excellent guitarist he really is but that's what he is a guitarist a 'pure' musician. Us that produce electronic or produce our music ourselves, I know guitarists and singers who play/sing and produce themselves........Before this turns into a rantfest, if it hasn't already Lol....The differences are cear between 'Pre' musicians and musician/engineer's are they not??????

 

interesting ...if you only play sessions (like your bro) then why should you bother about the way it's going to be recorded...i quite understand his position
...you just do your session, put feels into it, get your money and then let them do whatever they want with it....

if you want to record your OWN music however that's a different problem, and this knowledge engineers or producers have is definitely useful
to be able to translate what you play and especially the way it sounds without loosing a smidgen of it

i guess it all depends on which side you're on....

as an engineer or a producer you just have different skills that are actually complementary to those of musicians...and it's not always useful or even a good
thing for musicians IMO to record or mix their own music...as by doing so you have no hindsight/perspective on things and you can really get carried away if
you dont have a lot of experience...
that being said, if you do have the necessary experience, like let's say Dan Swanö (from Dark Tranquillity), who's at the same time a multi-instrumentalist musician/
composer /engineer / producer / you-name-it....you will have the ability to follow and influence each step of the process...and that's how you make kick ass record!

so in the end, it all boils down to how much experience you have...

 

A bit confusing thread title, isn't it? What does this has to do with DJs?

If you are a musician, and want to make your own recordings, you have no choice than to learn a bit about recording and mixing techniques, if you don't want the results to sound like crap.
But if you always have somebody else to record you, I guess there is no need to it...
Better concentrate on your job then, which is playing your instrument as good as you can.

 

The original title was simply 'Differences between......' and I put it in the 'Working with Sound' forum, which at the time I wasn't 100% sure was the right place for it (Saint has edited and moved it, which i'm sure we can all find it in ours hearts to forgive him for.....right???)

......Anyway, the point of it was basically the differences between being a musician pure and simple do your thing and gtfo (like my bro) and musician/composer/singer/creator/engineer. Nothing wrong with being either of course. There are however clear differences i.e one does his/her thing and the other appliea the relevant engineering to their production/recording/creation such as re arranging eq, compression and whatever else!!!. @ Gulliver you're quite right most of us who would want to make recordings would have to learn at the very least some aspects of the process. My brother went from 'the bedroom to the stage' lol....No, he knows the basics of recording this and that, but has no interest in the science of it all which is again fine. This isn't what we argue about it's accepting the difference between 'Musicians' and musician/engineers.......It's like I say 'he need not feel inferior that he's merely a musician' .

 

We have a saying in the construction trades...

"Good electrician? $40 and hour.
Good plumber? $40 an hour.
Good carpenter? $40 an hour.
Guy who can do all three? $15 an hour."

I think that if you possibly can focus on a very specific area it tends to be more productive. I am an electrician by trade (a reasonably good one) and have never had any interest in learning another trade. This focus has been very lucrative for me. However... a couple of years ago I got into web design, which led to an interest in development, which led to an interest in 3D animation, which led to an interest in programming. Now guess how many of those areas I have really excelled at?

The same has generally held true with music and music production. I can play guitar, bass, mandolin, keyboards, and drums, and am constantly tweeking on some new production tutorial.... totally fascinated with the idea of sonic 3D space in mixing, which only came about when I started trying to record myself and was frustrated with how muddy it sounded. I have basically just come to accept this about myself, that while in many ways I do end up limiting the extent to which I can excel at one discipline or another (i.e. mixing, composing, playing) I just find wayyyyy too many things fascinating to focus on only one.

Although sometimes I will admit to a bit of jealousy of the person who can focus on just one discipline...

 

yeah that's for sure, jack of all trades but master of none! it's indeed very rare to find someone excelling in all of them...but that does happen once and a while, that's why its often good for musicians to have someone else do the job

 

I think you need to be Jack of all. A good musician spends enough time in a studio to know the ins and outs of the way songs get recorded and good Audio engineer knows music theory and can at least play an instrument even if poorly.If an Audio engineer is nothing more than a button pusher and knows very little about music he\she will never make it in the real world.Like wise if a musician does not have grasp of boards and DAWs then he\she will never get the sound they are looking for. BTW D.J's do not count, all they do is play other peoples music.

 

That's like saying you're not a pianist unless you can build a piano. I would agree that many DJs just kind of play other people's songs in a slightly more creative way, but there are some that are doing stuff that technically and sonically would rival any "musician" out there.

 

I am a pianist and I can fix and tune a piano, a guitarist knows how to fix his guitar etc...In context It's easier for a musician to learn enough about software to get his or her ideas recorded but it would take years for an Audio Engineer to learn how to play music well enough to record any thing decent. And I agree with you on Dj's, but that has only been the last decade or so,Laptops and Ableton and auto mix software have really changed things up.Sorry if slightly O.T.

 

A DJ per definition is somebody who plays records (from other people).
If a so called DJ produces own records, then he is actually not a pure DJ anymore.

A DJ is not an artist for me. No way.
Never will understand how DJs could become huge stars, earning a lot of money.
That's my opinion, of course many here will see that differently.

 

I'm not really talking about those "huge stars" who are very often nothing more than guys-next-door who stoke it lucky, and whose skills are greatly overrated ...but that being said a good mix is not that easy to make and from what you say it's obvious you've never really tried to build a set. I'm not a DJ but I know how to, and being a good DJ IS being a good musician...you need to know some theory (whether intuitively (i.e by ear) or because you learned it...you need to know what key the 12" you're mixing are in, ...need to remember the number of bars in this or that section and need also to remember where it begins and ends on the record if you want to be able to mix it properly etc etc...that means you need to know your vynils fairly well! Even though it's true that for "easy" stuff like house, it may often be a bit easier than learning a song on the piano or the guitar, when it comes to sub-genres that's a different story...go try and mix some abstract hardcore on three or four decks for example and you're in for a good headache...DJs and musicians are not the same as DJs do not create sounds, they manipulate them...but would you say a painter is less of an artist than a poet? I wouldn't ...it's just totally different. =)

 

Well said,lysergyk . I myself started off as a musician(hobbyist), eventually moved on to DJing(professionally)but it was because I got so sick and tired of playing other peoples songs all the time that I put myself through a School for recording arts. Now DJs play my songs but like wise I play theirs. Music has always been an evolution. I don't care how it's made as long as it's good.I think that is the one thing we can all agree on.

 

Strange comparison, wouldn't you say?
A painter and a poet are both artists, in different fields (arts vs. literature).
They create something new, which had not been there before (good or bad).
What does a DJ create?

A DJ and a musician/composer work in the same field (music).
A DJ plays something, that a musician/composer created.

How many DJs are still working with vinyl?
Nowadays they use a laptop with a DJ program and a DJ controller. Sure, you'll have to learn the program and all that, but does that make you an artist?
Btw, I think it's the lamest thing to do, to sync all tracks to the same tempo and beat... that is so fucking boring, it's impossible for me to dance longer than 15 minutes if a DJ does that.

The things you mention, which a DJ has to know, are technical aspects. Nothing really creative there, which would justifiy it to call him an artist.
But I know that nowadays any jackass who can fart loud enough likes to call himself an artist (and the media do the same).

 

*no*
My o' my Mykal,Gulliver and others,Once upon a time this was true but not anymore,certainly on the whole dance music scene in general.Many many 'professional' djs that just have a dj income and not another job produce now to supplement their income and to get their fee's up for sets.Its the normal .The big dj's that have been on the go for a long time and are still going strong (like 20 years)produce and have labels etc while most of the rest have fell by the side.
Maybe your on about your mates down the local pub or at the local pint and a fight club but on a professional level you are completely wrong.Just thought i would bring you out of the 90's and early 2000's. *yes*
How Gulliver can say if you make music you are no longer a true dj surely makes me piss my pants with laughter
Thats like saying if you play an instrument and sing then you are not really a singer.... crazy shit...
And on the other side of the coin there are many good producers that have taken to djing using their laptops rather than learn the craft properly and they would be in trouble should their laptop decide not to boot up before a gig!

Yes there are low level djs that just play tracks and mix for8 or 16 bars and even more that let the laptop do most of the work but the true professional can mix on at least cd decks and will mix for 1-2 minutes per mix bringing in frequencies,filtered music and also use effects on the mixer to entertain which can only be done properly by understanding the music.The 1st thing a serious dj learns is the structure of music and builds upon that.I have taught many people to dj over the years and the 1st thing i do is get a pad and pen to explain music counts and bars before we even get the vinyl or cds out.Most of the dj's that are successful or 'big' are also musicians and artists and the best thing is, a lot are self taught from years of 'just playing other peoples music' and probably understand more about what works within music than someone who studied and conforms to what they have been taught.....
nuff said i think.Maybe you know more now than you did when you got out of bed...looooooooool *yes*

here is a good read from my good friend that talks about the whole dj culture starting from 1911 ! and evolving to the modern day dj/producer/artist/. Informative for those stuck in the dark ages
http://www.facebook.com/groups/pauldeighton

 

I send your own argument back to you...a musician playing an instrument and a DJ are both artists, in different fields (traditional VS. modern)
a painter will render his vision (whether real or not)on a canvas and poet will manipulate words and sounds to express something
so by using such a comparison, I implied a painter is somewhat closer to someone playing an instrument (all you have are your brushes and your canvas ...and maybe a model) and a poet closer to a DJ (because a poet doesn't need to invent the language he's using...though one may at times comes up with a neologism)

now to answer your question, what does a DJ create...they create a mix and actually if they are good it becomes a blend!

yes it true indeed but a DJ "plays" several pieces of work at the same time and combine them into one...and by doing so they are composing something new (the extent to how new it sounds depends on the DJ's skills)!
the same can be said of a band doing covers... it may happen that the cover is actually better than the original!

there are actually still a lot of DJ's using vinyls out there...that's what DJing is all about

but even if you use traktor or whatever software you like that offers beat matching and all sorts of tricks to make mixing easier...first that gives you more time to work on the actual mix...so you can do something even better, use more decks ...etc, and second if you have no musical talent, choose the wrong songs, wrong keys...etc ..you will still sound like shit!

A proper set list and a good mix HAVE TO offer tempo variation...otherwise that's not DJing

i'm sorry but whenever someone is mixing (no matter whether on 2, 3 or even 4 decks) and you can hardly recognise the songs as they are almost constantly blending into one another....that's definitely creative...and therefore you can be called an artist.


I can throw your own argument about that "jackass" back at you once more....nowadays even a "paltry" guitar or piano player can sound extremely good(and that is even at a bedroom level) as it's possible to substitute sounds, move them forward or backward, correct pitches...and so forth...so how do you recognise an artist?
if it sounds good and it is "somewhat" original (noone can be utterly original!), it is creative and artistic...no matter what gear you use.

 

Maybe you should read and quote carefully first, before pissing in your pants.
I wrote: "If a so called DJ produces own records, then he is actually not a pure DJ anymore."

That means, if he produces own records, he becomes a producer/composer/whatever, but is not solely a DJ anymore.
As I said, a DJ per definiton is somebody, who plays records.

From wiki: "A disc jockey, also known as DJ, is a person who selects and plays recorded music for an audience."
I hope you can see my point here, if not, don't piss in your pants again, please. *no*

@ lysergyk

I get your point, and can agree with you on several aspects.

But for me it remains, that combining music from other people, is not the same creativity or of same value, like somebody creating new music.
And as I wrote before, this is just my opinion.

That a DJ also has to know several things about music, still doesn't make him an artist.
I also have to know several things about a car for driving, still that doesn't make me a car constructing engineer.

 

Maybe you read my reply properly,we can all quote wiki My point being that the modern professional dj also produces to be at the top of their game,certainly on the dance scene.Thus meaning that they dont 'just play other peoples records'. Also a lot more effort goes in to mixing the music with a good dj than some one who just mixes.Quality dj's will take you on a journey and build a set rather than just do a mix. 1/4-1/3 of good dj sets are often spent in the mix *yes* In my world its the dj's who make the best music as they know what works so not only are they just dj's but top notch producers

 

You said it yourself now: they are producers, then.
That was all what I was saying. Can we stop that senseless discussion now, please.

You should delete your double-post, in your first posting you just quoted me.
Actually, if you reply directly under a post, there's no need to quote, and especially no need to quote the whole post... it makes the forum just too busy and overloaded (that goes not only for you, of course...).

 

Exactly ,so they don't just play other peoples muisc...
Tidied up my messy quote box, obviously something went a bit wrong