Specifically, i'm talking about using "early reflections" and "predelay" and other settings to make it sound like the band is playing in a 3D physical space, and all the instruments are placed in specific positions. To me this is one of the most underrated elements that makes a mix sound great (assuming you have your EQ, compression, levels, panning sorted), but it's also one of the most difficult to master (for me anyway). Knowing what parameters translate into where abouts in the sound space they sit is a bit of a headfuck. Right now i'm on the journey of really trying to figure this stuff out, so i thought it would be cool to start a discussion about it.

I've noticed i seem to be on a search that has lasted years now for a reverb plugin that i'm imagining in my mind: Something where the settings are based on positioning rather than typical reverb parameters. Something where there's a slider that goes from close to far, up to down, left to right, and under the hood it sets all the parameters required that give the psychoacoustic cues that make the brain sense what position something is in.

The other day i found a plugin that does this (dearVR), but unfortunately there's no wet/dry knob, so you can't really use it in parallel auxes without getting phase issues. Damn, so close!

There's another plugin that does exactly this (Inspirata by Inspired Acoustics), but it takes 200gb on the HD which i'm not willing to sacrifice.

What plugins have you found that do a similar thing to this plugin? Would love to hear about them. Algorithmic or otherwise.

Or alternatively, if you're using standard reverb plugins, what's your process/philosophy on setting things like early reflections, predelay, etc etc for giving the impression of close/far/medium/etc?
Are there any great vids that go over this? I've tried a couple but nothing that goes in-depth enough to really advance my understanding, yet

 

Hi @Barncore, here are some reverb VST that I use:
FabFilter - Pro-R, Brainworx BX - Room, TC Electronic - DVR250, TC Electronic - TC8210, Eventide - UltraReverb, Eventide - Tverb

This PDF (attached) gives a good overview:

Explainers: reverb parameters and how they work - PDF
By Electronic Musician (emusician) April 01, 2020

 

Virtual Sound Stage 2 + any Reverb.
Or simply MTurboReverb + Pan knob.

Edit: On Virtual Sound Stage one has to be careful with double panning. Guitars for example should be recorded twice, optimally with a different guitar to prevent phase issues.

 

Last edited: Aug 2, 2022

You beat me to it https://www.parallax-audio.com/

 

I use Altiverb for that. Try it. It has a positioning space really useful. Use studio spaces. Regards.

 

https://cupwise.com/product-category/reverbs-real-spaces/?v=0a10a0b3e53b

 

take a look here, interesting information.

https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/index.php

https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/creating-depths-with-breeze2/index.php

 

You do not really need a special plugin. Any true stereo reverb should do the job. It makes no difference whether it's convolution or algo, cheap or expensive. It's just about the plugin internal routing.

 

This wouldn't be a problem, I don't know what Daw you use, but in S1 with "Divisior" You can have two signals on the same channel, one wet and one dry, this way you give it away. Then there are plugins that do this same function like Blue Cat's PatchWork , you open the plugin there, and you can regulate the dry/wet level

Edit;

A very realistic plugin that was published on the sister site recently is "Quantum 2772 Evolution". It sounds very real to me, you could try it. And as has already been said. The right position, side, top, bottom, can be achieved with any vst, by sending to a "Bus", at least that's how I do it. Of course, depending on the plugin you use, it will sound more realistic or not.

You can also play with Nugen's Stereoizer for the stereo field (above, below, to the sides, etc) to achieve a 3D environment There is also another Waves vst that achieves this 3D sound, but I don't remember the name, if someone remembers...

 

Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2022

Depth? It no longer exists. the trend of mixing today is the extreme use (abuse) of buss compressor, this means that any source no longer has its own physical position in the 3D scenario, but it is located precisely in front of your nose.
It is obvious that with this workflow, the reverb loses its importance, however it no longer has the natural role of geolocating the source.
Reverb is for boomers
Use autotune instead

 

Thanks.
Well, i know what the reverb parameters do and what they mean, moreso i'm looking to learn how to apply that knowledge to the process of placing instruments in a 3D field using early reflections etc.
E.g. Should a sound have more or less predelay if you want to have the sound seem further or closer? Should closer sounds be a wider reverb or more mono? Stuff like that

Thanks to everyone else for their contributions too

 

Further away -> shorter predelay (to the back wall), higher predaly amount, higher (late) reverb amount.

Something no reverb can consider, when you have an orchestra and a big stage, the sound of the musicians in the background takes longer to reach the listener than those from the front players. For 10meters this can differ by ~ 30ms.

 

Reverb Culture
all about mixing Reverbs and Delays
https://mixedbymarcmozart.com/2016/03/21/reverb-culture-using-reverbs-and-delays-in-the-mix/

Try and listen - more practice - more time...!
The more you listen and operate the controls correctly the sooner your brain learns the new sounds.
And also stores it permanently, however it takes a lot of practice.
You can't manage something like this by reading, but only by practice.

 

Last edited: Aug 3, 2022

Agree! Part of the reason i'm studying it right now is because i'm currently mixing a band and so i have the opportunity to put it all into practice.
Anyway i finished the mix last night and i feel like i cemented my understanding of this stuff a bit further.

What really helped me was Michael White's videos on early reflections and depth, just gonna share it here for anyone that might be reading this in the future: https://www.youtube.com/user/mpginsidervideo/search?query=early reflections

 

?

 

UAD bob katz PRECISION-K
only on DSP
nothing like this

I also appreciate a lot Expanse 3D
https://unitedplugins.com/Expanse3D/

 

Listen to anything by Jeff Lynne / ELO... every one of their tracks (at least the hits) sound like they were recorded in a bandbox or a small garage. They didn't have DAW's back in the 70's/80's so what they were doing was all analog. It made them unique and when you heard their tracks being played even on AM radio that effect was always obvious.

BUT, then again, that was when tracks were mastered with some AIR left in them. The way the mastering process goes these days one might be able to achieve the same kind of thing, but it would be completely lost once everything gets smashed into maybe 1 db (if you're lucky) of dynamic range.

 

Last edited: Nov 22, 2023

Ok, this was maybe too short (again, looks like I need to work on this).
Imagine a stage.The further away the musicians on the stage are from the listener, the closer they are to the backwall. Therefore this predelay time is shorter than the one for the musicians standing in the front. Additionally the ER level is higher and has a wider freq range.
When they're closer to the front the ER level (from the back) is lower and the LR level (from the location) is higher, objectively and relative to eachother.

 

Wot you mean/referring to?

 

You can create the impression of further away simply by a higher reverb amount, no doubt. And I neither doubt that a million bands found a million ways to use reverb. There's no law you have to stick to. I tried to give a physical explanation of what's going on on a stage. Most analogue reverbs are not able to reproduce this, but this for sure doesn't mean they couldn't have a nicely reverbed sound - or a bad one if they didn't care.