In this episode of MakeMineMusic, Marc Daniel Nelson shows you a secret one step trick to making mixes louder yet more dynamic. While using a two part cocktail follow along as Marc brings back the punch and dynamics of this funky track.
I tried this and I'm happy with that. What is your plugins or hardware setup for limiting in mastering?

 

I always like the names of these channels. "Produce like a pro" "Mixing like a pro". It really shows the marketing is to pretend to be something which they already know they are not. Does slate digital still have this one sentence that always stand big on their homepage to be or do something like a pro?

Anyways. Clipping is harmonic enhancement and therefore more density in the frequency spectrum. I do not know how it should be possible to get more clean or dynamic with this.
In this video the answer essentially is to use a different plugin. Again.

 

Haven't watched the video, been using a clipper before a limiter for a long time now tho. First it was apShaper + Pro-L, now it's StandardCLIP + Pro-L 2. Only clipping (with harder knee) the drum peaks so the limiter have less to stress about. Reduces pumping and steadies out the dynamics for when you need some loudness.

 

Clipping to get more dynamics? Weird, since clipping cuts the transients that are essential for more dynamics and they also make the sound [especially drums] sound punchier, clearer, with more highs.

What he shows is how to get a cleaner sounding loud mix. Meaning, your limiter will not have to "pump" that much with the transients cut off, so if you want it loud [I call it "squashed" or "pancaked" ], use a clipper before the limiter.

Personally, I don't do that. I just make sure that the mix sounds right in the first place, then simply use a mastering EQ>mastering Limiter>Dither on the master bus and make sure the LUFS are right for the platform I'm going to upload it to. It also makes the job of adjusting it for different platforms easier.

Cheers!

 

The loudness war is still alive!

 

I tried this a while back with good results, BUT...

different combinations of clipper/limiter will give you different results, and depending on what you're trying to do it may not be a good idea. One thing to really consider when choosing these kind of things is the amount of low end informationt. If you have a very bass heavy sound with nothing to compensate it on higher frecuencies, you're very likely to loose even more impact (and reach distortion sooner) if you put a clipper+limiter than if you just use a limiter, even if the clipper was barely touching the sound.

If you really need that "extra" i'd recommend exploring your limiter first. Pro-L2 and a bunch more (even free ones) have different algorithms that you can choose and make the limiter react differently, and in a way the developers accounted for.

Unsaturated, Overly-squashed has a sound of it's own, and some genres just need that to sound right, even if you don't really need crazy dBs anymore. Idk, humans are weird.

Reject humanity, return to monke.

 

Rogue peaks usually happen in high mids & highs. When you clip them, the amount of harmonics introduced is minimal - so I would not count on a master clipper to bring in color. On the other hand, a brickwall limiter (with no internal clipping) will react to those rogue peaks and bring THE WHOLE SONG down for the small duration of those peaks. Being a compressor though, it will not be instantly fast so you'll have audible pumps and additional intermodulation distortion from the compressor itself (due to high speed).

Overall, if you clip mindfully then limit, the limiter will work less - so more dynamics. Also, the limiter will not distort that much because most of the shitty peaks are already taken care of - so more clarity.

Edit: clipping will not make up for a shitty mix. Actually if your mix sounds worse with a bit of clipping, you have a shit mix to begin with (you can use clipping as an indicator for how good a mix is). On the other hand, a tight and controlled mix will shine with a bit of clipping. The clipper and the limiter add the last 3% of polish, to put everything above into perspective.

 

Last edited: Jan 4, 2022

Yes, you can also put a very fast compressor before the limiter. Then the limiter will also work less.
Just because the limiter works less does not mean you will have more dynamics in the overall process.

Harmonic enhancement does reduce the dynamics as well of course and as you say yourself "...because most of the shitty peaks are already taken care of".

So, to sum it up: There is not more dynamics just because you put a clipper before a limiter. Exactly more the opposite is the case because a clipper has no attack time. But you can of course control it by the amount as this guy does in the video.

Edit: A way more controllable option is to put a compressor in front and set the ratio to 1.1:1 with a high knee. I call it the "transient massage".

 

Last edited: Jan 4, 2022

Any form of compression will bring down the entire mix, not just the peak. Bringing down the entire mix because of a rogue peak is worse than just chopping the said peak. Also, chopping a rogue peak in the high end will bring way less audible distortion than a compressor acting very fast on the entire mix (fast compressor on low frequencies can be really nasty). The less your master limiter works (in order to reach the target level) the more dynamics you preserve.

Is not rocket science. You can continue to be stubborn or use this information. I'm out of this topic. Cheers!

 

The more you use,
the more you loose!

 

I think the point being made here is that we can use clipping to enhance the relationship between dynamics and loudness. We could think of harmonic enhancement as a psychoacoustic measure of dynamics. So, while limiters and clippers both bring the mix down, limiters are intended to reduce the input signal with transparency, as in making the input signal compress "inwards" in a harmonic sense, whereas clipping/distortion compress "outwards", adding more substance rather than simply subtracting...

 

Clipping all together at on mixbus\master track cause a tone of audible intermodulation distortion. Best approach is to clip a tiny bit on each track to get more headroom.

 

I thought dynamics and loudness have an inversely proportional relation. More dynamics less loudness an viceversa. I recently watched this deep dive video series about it with a lot of interesting info.

 

Excellent video

 

I feel like most people here didn't watch the video at all. It's very high quality, and Marc Daniel Nelson is a guest on the channel. He is really really amazing, and I recommend watching the video before bashing the technique. As others have said, if you have a good mix, this will shine, if you have a bad mix it will make it worse. Peace

 

I always use Oxford Inflator before my Limiter, but I don´t let it clip, just giving it a little from the Inflator spice and to relief the limitier a bit in the end. Works for me.

 

Clippers clip peaks mostly, the whole idea afaik (for the most part) is to deal with transients and get the most crest without really messing up with the audio signal (that depending on what you're trying to achieve, ofc). So using a good clipper is a nice alternative to the digital aliasing caused caused by digital clipping (its a well worth compromise). You could also use a compressor with a lookahead or even just a limiter with a lookahead but those sound different since they naturally carve an envelope on the audio simply reducing peaks loudness instead of just distorting them.

That being said, I don't think people really know what dynamics means in real life. Lacking or having too much dynamics in itself means nothing. It really depends on what ones is working on and trying to achieve, I think people get paranoid about it and forget its a musical thing, it's not a simple "the more the merrier". Oddly enough clippers can help the listener to better perceive dynamics by providing room and character for each element. Ever wondered if mix engineers would stop compressing their drums? Listeners would be terrified (there are exceptions ofc but that stands for the most part).

Anyways, moderation is advised.

 

Last edited: Jan 5, 2022

Yeah, I want No Avenger's input too...!