Chord progression question

Discussion in 'Education' started by Undani1991, Apr 7, 2020.

  1. Undani1991

    Undani1991 Noisemaker

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    there is something that is bugging me for a while, I get the basics of harmony, but there is this chord progression Cm Abm that sounds evil and i really like it but I can't place it in any scale yet, I know that sometimes you can use out of scale chords but I dontk know how to that either, if somebody knows where to fin information about that of if you know a scale that would work with this progression I will be very thankfull

     
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  3. Smoove Grooves

    Smoove Grooves Audiosexual

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    That's because one doesn't place chords in a scale as you say, but rather places scales over chords.
    Cm has a scale. Abm has a scale.
     
  4. odod

    odod Rock Star

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    mostly used for cinematic transition, and it is not new .. mostly will go to Cm - Abm - F - C#m - Bb or can be anywhere
     
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  5. Undani1991

    Undani1991 Noisemaker

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    so in terms of key of a song, that would be like a modulation?
     
  6. Smoove Grooves

    Smoove Grooves Audiosexual

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    Cm can share notes with Abm though, before modulation as such. Eb and Bb.
     
  7. Ad Heesive

    Ad Heesive Audiosexual

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    Here's an answer that Jazz players tend to enthuse over

    An AUGMENTED scale C, Eb, E, G, Ab, B, (C) = 3-1-3-1-3-1

    Available Triads :-

    Cm (C-Eb-G)
    C (C-E-G)
    C+ (C-E-Ab)

    Eb+ (Eb-G-B)

    Em (E-G-B)
    E (E-Ab-B)
    E+ (E-Ab-C)

    G+ (G-B-Eb)

    Abm (Ab-B-Eb)
    Ab (Ab-C-Eb)
    Ab+ (Ab-C-E)

    B+ (B-Eb-G)

    Sorry if my summary botched it with any mistakes but I think that's right
    Google/Youtube 'Augmented scale' there should be tons of stuff.

    By the way - I don't like this answer !!

    I'm busy today, but I will later try to provide a far less jazzy answer
    A modal approach that I know serves me much better and maybe will be more helpful.
    :)
     
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  8. Undani1991

    Undani1991 Noisemaker

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    wow thank you, looking forward to hear about your modal approach :)
     
  9. Nought

    Nought Guest

    C Harmonic minor

    There are also 2 other Jazz scales that you can also try:
    Eb Major Bebop
    C melodic minor Bebop
     
  10. Ad Heesive

    Ad Heesive Audiosexual

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    Best Answer
    I previously promised to supply some kind of explanation of a modal approach.

    Firstly, If all the discussion below about diatonic spaces and modes sounds alien then my best shortcut here is to point you to another post where I discussed stuff like that and provided links to various tutorial resources.
    So, for background info, please explore the links in https://audiosex.pro/posts/448094/

    ====

    C minor and Ab minor
    We're dealing with two chords that clearly do not fit into a single diatonic space.

    So do we
    [1] accept that some kind of key change is happening back and forth as we play the two chords
    (I prefer to call this a change from one diatonic space to another)

    or do we
    [2] try to find some all-embracing scale that does naturally accommodate both of the chords and then (kind-of) imply that this single scale has enabled us to avoid changing diatonic space?

    You had some suggestions above for approach [2] i.e.,
    I mentioned the Augmented Scale
    @Nought mentioned three scales... C Harmonic minor, Eb Major Bebop, C Melodic minor Bebop

    All four of these do work, they naturally accommodate the two minor chords.
    I think of these roughly as follows:- (this is just the way I look at it, nothing formal here)
    - C Harmonic minor is an 'adjusted' diatonic space
    - Eb Major Bebop is an 'extended' diatonic space
    - C Melodic minor Bebop is both an 'adjusted' and 'extended' diatonic space.
    - The Augmented scale is an alternative to a conventional diatonic space.

    There are musicians out there that could make playing with those four scales sound amazing (not me!).
    So I am definitely not criticising working with those scales; but they're just not my preferred approach.

    So, back to approach [1]
    accept that some kind of key change is happening back and forth as we play the two chords.
    This is (I think) what @Smoove Grooves had in mind when he said
    "That's because one doesn't place chords in a scale as you say, but rather places scales over chords. Cm has a scale. Abm has a scale."

    That is what my modal approach is about. This modal approach is not meant to be the whole story. It does not preclude the idea of chromatic extensions (eventually) but it does emphasise first exploring clean safe diatonic spaces as a foundation.
    I'm describing only that foundation below.

    I gave up thinking in terms of labels like Major and minor a long time ago. For me if a song says C minor, I immediately want to know whether this is C Aeolian (i.e, natural minor) or C Dorian or C Phrygian. All of those are minor modes.
    Just saying C minor is too vague - I want to know precisely which mode is it?
    Maybe that question is already settled by something that the band is already doing, but if not then I want to explore which modes are available to use and choose whichever I find interesting.

    In this example Cm <-> Ab minor, I would consider all three minor modes as candidates for each of the chords.
    I would then look for which combination of modes looks the most promising.
    e.g. [C Phrygian + Ab Dorian] or [C Aeolian + Ab Aeolian] or whatever

    An important aside: This is already starting to sound like an analysis exercise (which it is) but I can't emphasise enough that all of the stuff described here should be happening intuitively while jamming.
    All this wordy analysis happens only when talking about it - NOT when playing it.
    Exploring it intuitively-subconsciously, while playing, requires a thorough hands-on familiarity with all the modes.

    So, I explored this and ended up preferring this combination...
    - I chose to interpret the C minor as C Phrygian
    - I chose to interpret the Ab minor as Ab Dorian
    That ends up with two diatonic spaces that are 'a tone' apart.
    Which you can maybe see more clearly by regarding
    C Phrygian as the iii chord in an Ab Major scale
    Ab Dorian as the ii chord in a Gb Major scale (1 tone down from Ab)

    So, I am doing what (I think) @Smoove Grooves suggests by having one scale (C Phrygian mode) for the Cm chord
    and another scale (Ab Dorian) for the Abm chord.

    But then you have to explore what you can do with that. What can you find when you compare those two modes?
    What do they have in common, what are the differences, and how can you exploit them?

    I had to bail out from writing an insanely long essay about this. Instead I've produced a single graphic showing how I might view it on a guitar, plus a few notes describing it, and then also a brief piano keyboard diagram.

    I guess that's a fairly densely packed graphic, but that will have to be enough, unless anyone has any questions.
    Otherwise it would become an endless essay. (and no-one would read it anyway)

    As I said above, if the diagrams and notes seem like gobbledy-gook, then please follow some of the links in the post I mentioned above.

    Last but not least - apologies if there are any confusing howler typo mistakes in my notes or graphics.
    And if the graphic is not clear in the forum, try a right-click download.

    Cheers

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Undani1991

    Undani1991 Noisemaker

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    very helpfull, thank you very much!!!!
     
  12. Smoove Grooves

    Smoove Grooves Audiosexual

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    I just didn't imagine that the op was necessarily ready for something more in depth, but I was wrong.

    Plus, "fitting chords to scales" as op mentioned seemed to be more how we sometimes do things with a topline or r.hand melody or solo in Jazz,
    whereas regards "evil/cinematic" I would choose more what I was implying, which would be to fit scales over those two chords of Cm and Abm. Of course certain blue notes, as have been mentioned, may work for passing notes, depending on the context or pace.
    Plus, I get impatient enough explaining simple tech things to members, let alone something which is very much now the job of @Ad Heesive, since MMJ seems to be mia!
     
  13. Nought

    Nought Guest

    There're only 2 genuine scales, Major and minor. The rest are not genuine and are demonic. Don't use them and if you're using them, abnegate them immediately. Right now.:yes:
     
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  14. Ad Heesive

    Ad Heesive Audiosexual

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    Well it was painful to throw all those scales away but I have complied.
    I got seduced by that delicious word 'abnegate' (actually don't remember ever seeing it before)
    Got carried away though, have removed all strings from my guitar and shaved away all the frets.
    Now use the guitar just to bash a snare drum.
    No lingering demonic tendencies with even Major or minor. All scales reduced to Nought.
    What a relief, time to throw away all that music theory at last.
    :)
     
  15. Hazen

    Hazen Rock Star

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    Let's assume I have the following chord progression (see attachment): what would be a reasonable continuation here?

    Can anyone help? Is there any simple method that help me to find the natural progression from the last chord?

    P.S. I'm aware that there are probably multiple possible progressions, but I'm asking about one that would be the most obvious / natural here, if there is such a thing.
     

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  16. mk_96

    mk_96 Audiosexual

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    G if you're looking to keep that lydian feel, Cmaj7 if you're looking for something a bit more final and don't give a shit about lydian. I'll PM you with the explaination because it's kind of OT and long-ish.
     
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  17. RobertoCavally

    RobertoCavally Rock Star

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    not really, because - it depends..

    Basically what @mk_96 said. Say, the "right" answer is Cmaj7. You have a strong subdominant, dominant (Fmaj, Gmaj) there, and thus your tonal center is C (since using parallel 7th chords, you finish on Cmaj7 - it would be "wrong" in baroque era, but it's absolutely fine now).

    But, Cmaj7 can also be the "wrong" chord, if you want to continue your journey because it is:
    ..indeed. It's your "home" chord, and somewhere in the middle of composition can feel like you've come to an end.

    Example:
    1.) listen how the music sort of ends if you put in the Cmaj7. It could still work for a loop or similar..
    2.) if you add another 4 bars, it's better to first land on G, the dominant/tension (eg. with help of 2nd inversion of Bbmaj7 to G9), and go to Cmaj7 the second time.
    3.) Add modulation, go for a journey and save the Cmaj7 for the finale ;)
    4.) There is no right/wrong/best way. And fortunately there is lots of possibilities..



    4a.) just scratching the surface. mk_96 doggo will tell you all about modal approach, which may give really fresh and interesting results. What I played sounds kinda jazzy.. and I hate jazz (jk, sortof..) :rofl:
     
  18. Hazen

    Hazen Rock Star

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    Thanks guys!

    @RobertoCavally So the first example is with a Cmaj7 ending? I don't like that progression in the context here. I have a different chord in my mind, but I have no idea which notes it contains and I couldn't figure it out on the keyboard. But I think it goes up, not down at the end.

    @mk_96 Thanks for the elaborate message! I will try to apply some of these techniques. I'm not really too familiar. To be honest: I usually just play Cmaj / Amin (white keys) chords and melodies and then transpose to my liking. So if at least I understood the basic chord theory for the Cmaj and Amin scale I would have a much better grasp.

    Or is it wrong to approach chords from a scale based thinking? I always think in terms of the musical scale first and then try to find chords that are appropriate to the scale (based on Cmaj or Amin scale and then transposed to any scale that I see fit).
     
  19. Semarus

    Semarus Kapellmeister

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    The writing process is different for everyone. Some come up with a melody and find chords to match, others, chords first then melody. No right or wrong there.
     
  20. aleksalt

    aleksalt Producer

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    I remember many songs of The Beatles as well as their chord progressions... and The Night Before is exactly thing you would consider as a reference of chords change you're looking for.

    Listen to the song and at the point 23:00 you'll find
    this progression twice: Bm - Gm - Bm - Gm, when Paul sings:


    Now (Bm) today I find (G) you (Bm ) have changed your mind (G* )

    * But, heck, I did a google search and found they all did this mistake:
    instead Gm they wrote G...
    to be precise, John and George (they sing harmonies), then Gm6 sounds there, i.e. the 6th step of the scale is added to the minor chord however, it is still a MINOR chord, not a major one.

     
  21. RobertoCavally

    RobertoCavally Rock Star

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    Yes, exactly. But, the second and third example also end on Cmaj7. You just don't perceive it the same way.

    It is indeed my main point. Cmaj7 is the "right chord", when it's the "right time" for it. Let's say your progression is 2 bars 4/4 (2 x 4 beats) long. The same as my first one. Now we can make it twice as long - my second one:

    [​IMG]

    In this context, C(maj7) is your tonal center, your "home". It's fine to come home, but not in the middle of a journey. So I choose G the first time around and C(maj7) at the end. The G chord also has the function to build tension and the C should feel like a resolution.

    What I want to say - you can kill the vibe if you use your "home" chord in a wrong place (like end of a phrase in the middle of chord progression). Important: these kind of rules should only be used as a guide and in certain contexts. I hate rules..;)
     
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