Question that may help clarify how we all hear differently.

Do your ears become irritated from an intsrument that is out of tune?
By irritated, I mean they over react, noticibly vibrate or pulse. Feel like thay are trying to shut out the annoying tones.

 

I can tell you in a second if something is recorded with my neve clone, my spl, my UA or my rme Preamps. I can tell why I am hearing it and describe you the characteristic sound of that preamp and tell you "thats why i know it is that preamp". But i cant tell you if the source is palyed back in S1, cubase or reaper ...

Like i said I never tested a big project side by side. But i tracked a lot of drums in reaper and edited mixed them in mainly cubase - (studio one and sonar). I never though - "wow i hear a difference if i imported my 12+ drum tracks into another daw then reaper after Tracking.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2017

DAWs don't sound identical regardless how it is perceived by the ears of some:

If you load the same .wav file into 2 different DAWs set at the same rates there will be acoustic differences because..

Although the .wav file is the same digital data, what you are hearing is each DAWs ability to work with the sound device in interpreting that data. Therefore the raw recording or rendering of the file .wav A in 2 separate DAWs will print any acoustic differences to .wav B and .wav C.

At this point you don't even need to rely on having good ears if you aren't able to hear any variance directly from the output streams of different DAWs. You can simply compare .wav B and .wav C at 1-1 file level and you will see that the digital data contained in those 2 files is no longer completely identical.

 

Last edited: Nov 21, 2017

the thing is tho, you genius, that you will end up with nothing. no difference whatsoever

 

There is a difference between the output streams of DAWs. They are not identical. If you use 2 DAWs to re-record/render copies of the same file they will not render identical digital mediums. The translation of the data determines "precisely" what you hear.

Not specifically, but similar to playing the same file through 2 different interfaces. It doesn't change the file obviously. It swaps the digital interpretation of that file, and therefore the sound for better or worse. When the output is recorded/rendered to a digital medium is when you can literally open and read the differences. The DAWs themselves interact with interfaces and drivers differently. And that's before we even get to the difference in DAW vs DAW interpretation from beyond that point. They don't all do the same exact math.

 

Last edited: Nov 21, 2017

If you load the same .wav file in 2 DAWs and get two different renders without applying any processing, one of those DAWs is shit; into the trash it goes.

Let me turn you on to that Golden Ears Standard of Fidelity, Fruity Loops.

I load a 16-bit .wav file, I render it as 16-bit .wav, drag the render back into Fruity Loops, assign it to an insert, invert it & hear ...yeah, you got it, ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶ ̶m̶a̶c̶h̶i̶n̶e̶s̶ nothing.

Edit: You might get minor timing differences in some formats (padding), different DAWs might apply different dithering algos by default, or even offer to normalize renders -- don't know, but any DAW that fails a basic transparency test (Original - Render = 0) is a fancy distortion box, at best.

 

Last edited: Nov 21, 2017

You did a null test with Fruity Loops vs Fruity Loops. That proves the output rendered from Fruity Loops is identical to.. yeah you got it.. Fruity Loops.

Render the raw output of the same file between Fruity Loops and a "different" DAW (dithering off). Then pull the copy of the output rendered by the other DAW into Fruity Loops and do your null test against your Fruity Loops copy. And yeah you'll get it.. something is different. Use an analyzer if you need to.. you will "see" the different acoustic sum if your ears aren't good enough to hear it. You can also compare the contents of the .wav containers and confirm the digital data is not 1-1 identical. Some of us hear meticulous differences in the output between DAWs and don't need to go through the visual test. But for those who need the visual test.. the first thing you need to do is conduct it the right way. I just told you how. Have at it if you will.

 

Last edited: Nov 21, 2017

Well, there's your problem right there. Let me help:
1. I load a clip into fruity loop (henceforth Original),
2. render it (henceforth Render),
3. subtract Original from Render to see the difference,
4. and get 0 (zero; none)

Now let's into math & logix. If (Render - Original = 0), Render = Original. Fruity Loops has not introduced any distortion.
K? Follow me, reader!

If Your_DOW_Of_Choice introduces no distortion, its (Render - Original) also = 0 (zero). They're interchangeable, due to grade school math, which tells us that if X = 0 & Y = 0, X = Y; they're identical. So no need to open another DUH - it's either worse than Fruity Loops (Render - Original != 0), in which case we trash it, or it's the same (Render - Original = 0), in which case ...yeah, QED.

 

No offense mate but ...
i did a very quick null test like you metioned it. Cause this made me curios .
Source a loop 5 seconds of hi-hat. I imported that loop into reaper 96 khz 32 bit. rendered.
Than I importated the original 5 seconds loop into sonar (same settings) and on another Tack I importated the rendered reaper loop. I hit the phase flip button and guess what? Complete silence.

I rendered the sonar loop and imported it into reaper - compared the rendered sonar loop in reaper with the original loop in reaper - complete silence.

Than i even opend a new reaper project imported the rendered reaper and the rendered sonar loop. - Track phase reverse. Silence.

Maybe i am doing something wrong? But there is no difference at least in sonar and reaper for me. I only got my notebook here. So no cubase test. But I doubt I get another result.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2017

This shows the output of Fruity Loops is the output of Fruity Loops. The null rendering test isn't conducted to see if the output of your DAW is different than "itself". That's common sense math right there. Null rendering tests with the same DAW are for the purpose of determining whether any random noise is being introduced from your devices or plugins, or for bypassing plugins to check if delay compensation is working properly for them.

 

If you can't amplify it enough to hear any sound sequence after nulling (keep in mind you tested with only a high hat sequence: better to conduct with a full song that covers more frequencies in dB to help you hear any variant) use a spectral analyzer on the master to see any difference you need to. The amplitude after nulling is not going to be a high dB like your're offsetting the phase of 2 completely different songs. You will hear and/or see enough amplitude in the spectrum to show you they are obviously similar given they are the same song, but they don't have the same/identical output. They are acoustically different because of that remaining sum.

 

Last edited: Nov 21, 2017

@Ted Smithton if you have the time you can read all about it here.
http://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic.php?t=45272

 

What ever dude. I just did what you said a null test between 2 different daws. And my results show me there is no difference. I never heared a difference and I never saw a difference. Ah a spectral analyzer oh got you it is this golden ear thing again. I hear 96khz. Nevermind if you think daws sound different no one can proof you wrong. Cause no one can hear the voices in your head. And no one can hear the voices in my head . I dont hear or see (metering and spectral analyzer) a differnce between reaper and sonar.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2017

There are definitely *audible* differences between different DAWs. To me, metronome sounds the best in Cubase, it has that creamy, silky, analogue quality, but I prefer the one in Reaper as it is more configurable.

 

Whatever anyone else thinks is/isn't the case doesn't give or take a dime from another. The "test" in manner I listed to go about it yields results that the output sound of different DAWs is not 1-1 identical. The test is for those who claim they "can't hear" any difference in the first place. That means likewise they "must" use a spectral analyzer or open the two .wav containers in text form so they can "view" the difference their own set of ears can't hear.

 

Last edited: Nov 21, 2017

Offs, which part of "I'm comparing the Original (input file) to Render (output file)" eludes you?

 

You're comparing the file in Fruity Loops to a rendering of the same file in "Fruity Loops". Why is it difficult for you to understand that doesn't equate to you comparing the output stream of Fruity Loops to the output stream of "a different DAW". You have to null compare a file rendered by Fruity Loops to the same file rendered by another DAW. And use a spectral analyzer on the master when you do the null comparison so you can "see" the low dB of output remaining. That remaining output sum you'll see is what's responsible for the "difference" you don't hear in the first place. Some can hear it without having to see it. But this will allow you to see what your set of ears aren't able to identify.

 

Last edited: Nov 21, 2017

Well, at least nobody said that Reason sounds the best.

 

hehe used to love Reason...long time ago.

Anyway, DAW do indeed sound different, because of :
-summing algorythms, and calculation (few decimals in most daw) = minor difference
-panning law = big difference (hello ableton??)

With a few tracks and few processes, if phase are perfectly aligned, the difference will be allmost inaudible in any 'major' DAW.

But, scientific FACT is, if you put a single file (without any processing) and render it, their is NO difference (in ANY DAW)...
you can import and do a null test, re-render it 150 times and zoom x1Million on the file...there will be complete silence/blank.

are you that stupid???
If fruity loops inserted noise or anything, it wouldn't null then you genius...
rendered = original (+ supposed noise)
rendered re-imported in logic and rendered again = (original + noise) + (noise again...see???)
So, in a null test: (orignal + (2x noise)) - (original + noise) = noise.
Means, it wouldn't null if there was anything "introduced"...maybe too hard for you to get.
You can try render 50 times if you want, and import in any DAW...will be the same.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2017

K. We'll do it your way

Ready?