Apple moves to self produced ARM cpus for the Mac - Bye Bye Intel

Discussion in 'Computer Hardware' started by taskforce, Jun 22, 2020.

  1. lbnv

    lbnv Producer

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    Poor Intel! First AMD, now Apple... :unsure:
     
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  2. Whispaz

    Whispaz Member

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    Here’s what a developer posted on Reddit when asked what could be expected:

    “I'm half of Unfiltered Audio. We prepared for this a few months back by making sure that our stuff compiles on ARM, at least as AU. I signed up for one of the dev preview kits when they were announced today. It's annoying, but it's part of the job.

    The main bottleneck (and probable pain-point) will be actual DAW and format testing. AU compilation should be easy, but I imagine we'll have to wait for updated SDKs for VST3 and AAX (who knows if VST2 will work at all? Guess we'll find out soon). JUCE already has ARM support when compiling for iOS targets, but they'll have to add in definitions when doing Mac compilations. After that, we'll have to wait for DAWs outside of Logic to have ARM builds so that we can debug our plugins in those.

    I'm super happy that they're doing Universal Binaries again so that I still only have to do one compilation + notarization pass per plugin (even if the compilation takes twice as long). That was honestly my biggest fear today.

    TL;DR: Don't rush out to buy one. It's not going to be a quick transition for everyone.”
     
  3. tzzsmk

    tzzsmk Audiosexual

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    great news actually,

    I'd say the WWDC 2020 showcase was really tailored towards end-users rather than developers,
    but from developer point of view this is probably best thing to happen, because:
    1) easy to compile apps for any Apple device, because of same architecture across iPhones, iPads, iMacs, MacBooks, MacMinis etc..
    2) unified graphics engine (Metal) which transition has already started years back is not being "accelerated" by actual Apple chips
    3) Developer MacMini Kit for few bucks being provided as it is, ready to roll (same CPU as new iPads, 16GB RAM, 512GB NVME SSD)
    4) actual functional tools to ease up moving onto new platform
    5) thoroughly integrated functionality on core level, including graphics, video, memory management, disk management etc..

    I bet Microsoft can't afford to stay behind and we'll see ARM revolution in Windows worldl within 3 years too
    :chilling:

    for crackers probably not so great, but the open-source nature of the tech will allow workarounds for sure :wink:
     
  4. Area51

    Area51 Kapellmeister

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    you're completely losing it. relax
     
  5. tzzsmk

    tzzsmk Audiosexual

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    one thing I just noticed: MacOS BS

    (=Big Sur)

    :rofl:
     
  6. taskforce

    taskforce Audiosexual

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    Sure. You know this other one with two cowboys entering this saloon... I will just put your annoying presence on ignore and get on with ya.
     
  7. Xupito

    Xupito Audiosexual

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    As a PC user I'm just delighted to see if Apple/ARM can develop powerful desktop CPUs. It would be nice to add ARM to the Intel and AMD fight in a few years.

    It'll be a bit hard for Apple users in those few years just like the last CPU platform transition to Intel, but not the end of the world.

    For me the biggest challenge hands down is to find a way to have a fast "one-core equivalent" speed. Quite the challenge on the hardware side but also also on the software.

    It seems they'll use some dedicated chips (audio, I/O) inside the main chip, like PS5's AMD CPU.
    That's great but not enough for a general purpose PC.

    Ok, may be it matters too that I'm a techie/geek :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
  8. Epidemico

    Epidemico Kapellmeister

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  9. vsuper

    vsuper Ultrasonic

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    What a stupid move, anybody remember history? they already had their own cpus, and they failed and switched to intel...
     
  10. recycle

    recycle Audiosexual

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    A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty
     
  11. 2poor2

    2poor2 Ultrasonic

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    Most fans would go as far as killing a brother or niece, just to be able to get that new apple product...

    And even if this Arm thing isn't good or positive,
    ... mac fans WILL still buy it DAY1.

    This is not a move to give mac users better perfs, specs and choices.
    No.
    This is ANOTHER move, to eliminate another 'standard' that apple can't fully control.

    We all remember the macromedia FLASH story. Apple started saying flash didn't run very well on safari, bla bla... and they had to get rid of it.
    The only reason why it probably didn't work 100% as expected, is the same reason why, in 2020, despite being perfectly working, defined and approved standards, like bluetooth, it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to transfer a simple .jpg file from a, eg, Samsung galaxy s10 to a iphone 7..11.
    The reason being apple locking and blocking all those kinds of interactions between apple and non apple devices.
    By removing flash, apple, again, imposed their power, and told users "you know what ? Because WE DECIDED, in a few days, probably 50% of all your favorite/bookmarked websites, from your internet banking, your sister homepage, and/or hundreds of other homepage or pro websites, WE DECIDED you will no longer be able to access them.

    Change your bank, change the websites you like, replace your sister, you can't access those websites.

    And of course, once again, apple fans bend over, say ' as you wish, master, only you know what is good for us', and happily accept the decision.

    Apple hate standards... when they aren't the ones creating them.

    Audio units.
    VST exists for over 30 years. Instead of creating a proprietary thing, Steinberg fully opened it, and made it an open standard, at 0 fees.
    Apple needed a few extra features, like inter app audio exchange... or multi audio interfaces at once...? Why not working with steinberg, and even bringing those features to windows and linux ?
    OF COURSE NOT.
    They had to do their Audiounits crap, and guess what the end result is ?
    Instead of devs making ONE 32bit VST version, and ONE 64bit VST version, for everybody (with a few tweaks for the mac file structure), and leaving them much more time to create great new plugins, and MAKE MORE MONEY,
    actually, apple makes them LOSE A TON OF CASH, because they must keep on coding those PERPETUAL MAC UPGRADES, as every x months, a news mac version Is released, and often, everything done previously, has to be re- coded from scratch.
    Between supporting old mac OS versions, and supporting new mac OS versions, devs spend most of their time supporting old plugins....
    And because they waste all that time with 'apple' , they have no time ... to code new plugins... and make more cash.

    Just look at U-he.... almost ONE DECADE to release zebra 3... and it won't probably be released before 2021... or even 2022.
    Sure, their current plugins, like zebra, diva and hive guarantees them some permanent cash flow... but hey, pretty much everyone who wanted to buy diva or zebra, already did it, so.... THEY NEED NEW PLUGINS.

    Despite them being at least 8 or 9 guys who actually code stuff, they must waste countless precious hours...weeks... years... coding those never-ending mac updates.
    When they could be releasing new products, and making much more money.
    No, apple isn't a 'good thing' for most software companies. For retailers as well, as most stores only have a few % margins, and make most money on accessories and cables !

    Is the Arm move something that users will benefit from ? Of course not.
    Their proprietary ecosystem will just become even more proprietary, more closed... and it will be like some religions, where 'if you aren't 100% with us, than, you are 100% against us.
    You EITHER are an apple lover, a true fan, who will praise the company , with that 'we are superior" mentality, who can afford to spend more than the rest if the population... OR you are a loser, a hater, an inferior person, because you choose to not be part of the 'cult'.
    YES, CULT. A mac fan will be even more fanatic than a playstation vs xbox vs nintendo guy.

    With the arm, no more "oh, this equivalent hardware on pc is 40% faster, and costs 60% less".
    NO.
    Apple will just release 2 or 3 skus of a model, wil no longer mention 'intel i9 xxxxx @4.xxxGHz', and will instead, to further fool the dumbest of the dumbest, who buy everything without even checking the specs, wil name their products
    - Apple coolbook, arm processor model armv114, with option magicram, magicboost, magicrypt safe and hypermagicthread. Price: $4499

    And guess what ? People, websites, computer enthusiasts, will no longer be able to say "hey, if you buy the same hardware for windows, you save at least 40"..... because it will be impossible to compare Arms to x86 intels....

    The exact same crap happens with UAD plugins and their dsp cards.
    2020, and they are still selling and using their +10yo cheapass, slow, sharc dsps... and some plugins can max out a solo, duo, quad, or even octo chip...with only a few stereo, 44/16 instances....let alone 96/24...lol
    But hey, don't blame the cheapass, old, slow and cheap 10yo dsp... instead, blame the plugins, that sound even better than their hardware counterparts , according to ALL the user reviews.
    Meanwhile, top companies are releasing incredible x86 plugins, that can be opened hundreds of times, on super modest 10yo computers!
    Without the possibility to compare the DSP to a regular cpu or computer, users will buy $1700 octo cards, thinking they are buying a supercomputer with 20'000 cpus, and will buy those sweet 300-$400 plugins, thinking they are getting a perfect 1:1 replica...

    It will be funny, to watch many top apps perform 2 to 3 times worse on a $4000 arm based system than on a Intel based computer. But hey, that's not a problem, what truly matters id the "overall experience" , right ...? ;)

    Apple is ready to do everything, to build their ecosystem. And they truly succeed.
    Imagine those 5 kids, at school, 14-15 years old. They ALL have some products, iPhones, tablets, etc. A new kid arrives, and he's trying to make some new friends. They start taking, and playing, everything is fine. Suddenly, one of the 5 guys ask the new kid which phone he uses.
    He says he has a galaxy s10, that works really good, and he has a cheap Huawei tablet, to watch YouTube, and he also has a computer, too play games and study.
    The moment he says that, it is OVER.
    those 5 kids don't want to hang out, or even talk, to a miserable android and pc peasant, whose dad and mom must work at McDonalds or Amazon, and are too poor to buy him a fabulastic apple device.
    Like with the standards, and everything else, SEGREGATION, instead of UNION.
    because the more the users sell feel "UNIQUE", about owning an apple product, the easier it will be, to make him buy more.. and more.. and more devices.
    "No, you're not just paying 400 extra bucks. NO. You are lucky to have the privilege of acquiring the best product ever'

    And when you manage to have such people, as your customers, the sky is the limit.
    You can remove the 'delete' function, from a device, and those people will even applaud it !

    You can remove sockets, just to sell a $50 adapter, those people will be delighted to spend those 50 bucks.

    Apple started the 'no removable battery' thing, to prevent users from resuscitating their "old" device, and force them to go buy a new one.. again, people say yes, and obey.

    I wouldn't say ALL, but MOST apple users, they let apple dictate their life... what they can watch, what they can do, where they can go, how often, how long... they don't think by themselves, instead, they let apple do the thinking... and choose what, how, when, etc, they can do.

    I'm sorry, but I love that kind of freedom, where I am in (relative ) control, and I can decide by myself.
    I would and will never buy a product from a company, that dictates me which websites I am allowed to visit, or not ( eg, the macromedia Flash thing...)

    Hate me, ban me, which I get a cancer and die... but apple is just as devilish as google, facebook, microsoft, etc etc.

    I truly hate apple, and can't accept the jehovah- like mentality, of MOST apple fans " ok, you have your own religion, you love it... but you STILL should become a jehovah witness, because it's better, because this, because that"

    " so...you have a computer? you really should GET A MAC, it's better, faster, and there is no virus"
    --> F U C K Y O U
     
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  12. vsuper

    vsuper Ultrasonic

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    Great point, and any 20 years old vst STILL WORKS on ANY PC, now try to run 20 yo soft on mac....
     
  13. Qrchack

    Qrchack Platinum Record

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    Considering most audio professionals are using 2012-2015 hardware and haven't updated to Catalina, with studios using Pro Tools 7/8/9 to this day because of various reasons (because they don't want to shut down the studio for a day or two while the OS and all software gets updated, because their audio interface, control surface or plugin isn't supported in newer version of the OS and/or DAW) and the same being true for video editors (the big budget film and TV broadcast stuff, not youtube vlogs - we're talking calibrated monitors/projectors, sync gear and proper video cards here), I doubt anything will change in the foreseeable future.

    Just look at the fact most people in audio are interested in 1940-1960 gear because they don't want to change what has always worked for them.
     
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  14. tzzsmk

    tzzsmk Audiosexual

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    actually ARM based iPad Pro 2020 is already on par and even outperforms 10th gen Intel Core i5 based MacBook Pro 13 in both singlecore and multicore Geekbench 5 benchmarks

     
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  15. Qrchack

    Qrchack Platinum Record

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    Kind of. It's not exactly an open standard, you have to agree with Steinberg's terms and conditions, including their recent move to only allow VST3 development unless you have filled in and signed an agreement with them before the deadline. Sure it's more open than having to apply for the tools needed to develop, but it's far from "fully opened".

    Because it's a company, and like any company it works for profit. You can get mad at them and it doesn't change the fact they are not obligated to play nice with everyone. Spending money working on new features and then making them available for competitors isn't exactly a sane choice when your goal is to have advantages over other options.
     
  16. recycle

    recycle Audiosexual

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    I totally agree with this concept: I too would like a world where there is no one to tell me what I can or cannot do. In the meantime, I have to adapt to these impositions, as far as I'm concerned, I'm not the one who will change the rules of capitalism. I would like to remind you that for multimedia the only possible alternative to macos is Windows (I have tried others OS but I cannot take them into consideration). I don't think Bill Gates' corporate policy is to be considered "socialist": he too only looks at his own interests at the expense of people's freedom.
    Now back on topic: nobody knows the technical details of ARM processors and Big Sur OS, we can only speculate about it. I continue to think that macos is a well conceived system and I believe that once again they will not be wrong with this update. Obviously, without Jobbs, the lack of real innovation is felt, but If the only other option is Windows then I choose macos for my whole life.
     
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  17. kjfarrell

    kjfarrell Platinum Record

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    It took a while, but someone finally said it. This is the reason for the switch.
     
  18. Xupito

    Xupito Audiosexual

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    Yeah, that's cool, but I'm talking about 24/7 tested powerful desktop PCs.
    With all the important software coded native for ARM64. Including DAWs, VST plugins.

    I'm sure they'll be able to pull it off because is a multi-billionaire tech giant but that still will take a few years. And by then Microsoft would be at least half-committed to also switch to a almost mature ARM64 hardware/software architecture.
    That's the moment I'm expecting.
     
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  19. Slavestate

    Slavestate Kapellmeister

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    TL:DR hackintosh folks with their panties in a bunch they won't be able to cobble a half ass faux Mac together anymore, and folks that have no clue about development that think everyone has to start from scratch at ground zero again..

    Good for me, my brand 2 week old Mini should last long enough for them to get their ARM shit together. If its a mess in 5-6 years, there's always Windows and Cubase to fall back on..
     
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  20. grdh20

    grdh20 Platinum Record

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    I tried Big Sur yesterday, and as expected, and as it always is early on, it sucks for audio production as far as compatibility and stability is concerned. As ARM moves in, I can only imagine the situation gets worse. Not liking this direction.
     
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