It seems you are mixing up pitch and speed a bit. All there hi-fi decks are only able to change speed (i.e. pitch and tempo). And like timer says, you can do the same in the digital domain without "artifacts" too.

No Dolby S tough.
The -70 dB are just a theoretical value. Maybe you would be close to it with a TDK MA-XG or Sony's Super Metal Master, but these tapes are more expensive than your deck...

 

Im not confusing them, i fully understand relation between speed and pitch.

Yes you can do it through sample rates, but you can end up rounding off and losing samples. It's all in how the new sample rate divides into the your project sample rate. -12 semitones or Dividing the sample rate in half will have less artifacts than -11 because of interpolation.

Which is something that doesn't exist in the analog domain as it is a continuous function.

Also the sound and natural compression of tape would be nice too.

I'd go reel to reel if it wasn't for the fact that the units cost 4 times as much, tapes are more expensive and virtually obsolete, and they take up 6 times the space.

Amazon still sells cassettes

 

@MYCbeats, please report back how the Sony works out for this after you get it.

 

Ahhh the sound of the Nakamichis ,could talk for hours. Anyway for the OP, something like this won't brake the bank:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tascam-130-...112562?hash=item3d43b79ff2:g:ZSUAAOSwjTlZh20x

 

If you can find a good one in mint condition then why not? It'll add more fun if not a little hassle but if the results are good then it's worth it. Obviously having a supply of good quality cassettes is paramount.
A really cheap way of getting ahold of the usual noise reduction systems is by grabbing a license of u-he's SATIN, That section in of itself is worth the price of the plugin IMextremelyHumbleHO for people using tape machines of any sort.
I have a few tape machines but I do not have a nice regular hi-fi cassette deck, So I'm not in the position to offer much in the way of advice. I remember from my tape days of using high speed dubbing to record things far quicker than real time which is automatically compensated for, I'm sure there is an easy way to feck with such a feature/function as it after all a mechanical thing but it does reduce dynamic range and the quality compared to doing realtime recording, As said though I've no idea how it would affect short samples if it we're hacked into in order to be a means of pitching the source material, As that's alot different from high speed dubbing full tracks (obviously).
A close friend has a Sony TC-WR465 which is sounds really good to me, It's a dual deck unit, I've seen them for anywhere from $20 - $70 depending on variables. I'll probably grab one myself as I have and like my hi-fi seperates but I'm not into that audiophile stuff which is ridiculous as it costs way more than most damned studio gear and in some cases a mastering house kitted out with the best of the best gear! So I refuse to get into that area which I'm certain is bathed in snakeoil.

All the best and interesting topic

Dean

 

Another tape-head here. I really like your idea of analogue pitch-shifting. Shame my Akai GX-75 doesn't have pitch control. But it's a really good tape-deck otherwise. I think these Tascams [the one Taskforce mentioned is cheap also] are the way to go for you, though. They are really great tape-decks and fit in the rack nicely. Just make sure they're in top shape or prepare to part from some more money for restoring it to it. I bought my Akai with completely worn out belts, otherwise looking like new, and then I ordered new set of belts from e-bay for like $20 and installed them myself. Working like new. :P It really is not that difficult to do it yourself.

One thing that popped into my mind regarding pitch shifting is that TAL-Sampler might be doing it really good in one of its different modes, without introducing any serious digital artifacts. I can't remember now which mode would that be [I'm not using Windows for browsing], but I'm using TAL-Sampler a lot along with my hardware samplers and it sounds really good. Enough to say that I don't use Kontakt any more...

Cheers!

 

Last edited: Aug 24, 2017

I tried calling the used shop that was selling it... some environmental tree planting not for profit picked up the phone... -.-

I will stay on the hunt.
If I can't find something locally by the end of the night I'll pick one up from eBay.

 

Here is a fleabay Nakamichi still cheap if and when you decide to go that way...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nakamichi-D...d=263129112562&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

 

I haven't found a Nakamichi that offered variable speed, which is the whole point of this exercise. I guess having a pot to control the motor speed had some negative consequences that they weren't willing to settle with, maybe it increased the wow and flutter.

So far its Tascam 112mkii
Sony TCWE475 or 675
JVC W309 (and a couple others)
Pioneer made some great ones too but I havent found any models yet

They have all received great reviews in the past, but the Tascam is the only "Studio" grade one, apparently built like a tank, the rest are hifi. Also its the simplest which means less could go wrong, but only +/- 12% pitch where as Sonys do 30%.

Theres also the option of Tascam multitrack recorders like the 244 and 414, but I believe for stereo recording they would have more noise than the ones I mentioned earlier as they'd be using only half the width of the tape.

Interestingly Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska was recorded on a Tascam 144.

 

Last edited: Aug 25, 2017

My old Porta One would put four tracks in the same "lanes" a regular stereo cassette used, just couldn't "flip" it over as the last 2 tracks were recorded on the other side. Hope that's clear enough what I mean.
Are the 244 and 414 different in that regard?
Nevermind, I understand what you mean by when recording in stereo now. It would be the same with any of the HIFI tape units you mentioned as well. Only half the width of the tape would be used.
If it was me, I'd record the stereo image to track 1 and 4 to keep them further apart. That is if you did go the multi track route.

 

I have a Tascam Portastudio 464 for this same purpose, mainly the "SP1200 trick" as it's commonly called. It has a high-speed button and a dial for adjusting speed, so you can combine them to achieve different speeds. And noise reduction.

One benefit is that even if you decide to forget the tape idea, it'll still leave you with a project mixer. And @digitaldragon is correct in that the 4-track multis operate with the same principal as a normal HiFi deck when used in stereo. The tape width is only compromised if/when using an 8-track cassette machine because the 4-track models simply use the normal stereo tracks, just front and back simultaneously instead of flipping the tape on a HiFi.

Watch out for dead capstan motors though. Some are quite rare -- like the one in the 464.

I recorded a test tone to cassette and then used a tuner to find positions where the various semitones matched perfectly using different combinations of high/low and the varispeed dial, and then marked them off for future use. Makes it possible to transpose perfectly on samplers without a fine pitch adjustment (old hardware, I'm looking at you).

 

Last edited: Aug 25, 2017

I use ReaPitch and it's amazing, the things you can do with it. You can create multiple shifters for diferent effects and you have diferent algorithms to preserve higher or lower formants.

The downside is you can only use it in REAPER.

REAPER and ReaPitch uses élastiquePro v3 algorithm from zplane, you can use the ELASTIQUE PITCH V2 plugin from them, but you have more options with ReaPitch in my opinion.

https://products.zplane.de/elastique-pitch-2

You can automate the playrate in REAPER for start & stop Tape FX:

Hope this helps

 

Last edited: Aug 25, 2017

wait wait, 3 things:

1 i thought people these days record through tape machines rather than actually recording to a length of tape. didnt they stop producing tape? i remeber a rumor that creative labs? bought one of those companies but i had a hardtime believing that. who makes tape now and out of what?

2 i spent 2 years demagnetizing, aligning, head cleaning, repairing our tape machine everyday. every single session. it was a pain in the ass. requires constant maintenance. tape itself needs serious storage considerations and youd courier the tapes to a storage facility downown asap. editing tape is a seperate occupation, and the whole thing was expensive. you could do some cool things with it, i personally like flutter on a guitar but over all incredibly annoying to deal with. its why theyd hand the whole thing off to interns. then we got protools and both clients preferred the cheaper costs and we preferred less of a hassle. it was hard work to keep the s/n ratio decent. from tracking to mixing to mastering, there are tons of techniques to reduce noise. that extra 20db meant having to use less of them. seriously, the actual level of noise stayed the same til 2000 or so to my ears. thats how lazy humans are. in my humblely lazy opinion of course..i never looked back at tape. digital to outboard to digital is what i think everyone does now.

3 dolby, we didnt have sonys so i dont know, please correct me if im wrong, but i dont think anyone used dolby for professional recording. nak had highcom3, that was the ferrari everyone wanted when they thought tape noise reduction. i remember a friend mastering for dolby playback, i remember my car stereo had a lil dolby switch i avoided and dolby sr is pretty much a standard in cinemas around the world, but thats all playback. playback that usually sounds over compressed, stifled, flat, bassy, muddy. and VERY system dependant. what sounded ok here, could sound horrible there.

does anyone remember mixtape stores in the mid 90 in nyc? i know dolby was used alot in duplication and those guys had it down, using mostly linked sony cassete tape recorders. a wierd niche, consumer grade pro rerecording...

 

and word up MYCbeats, reapitch is the sheeet. reaper in general is killing it.

 

I am now the proud owner of a Sony TCWE675.
First job was to delete those awful plastic feet so I could fit it into my tiny rack.
Next step is to find a cassette in the basement lol

I plan on doing a comparison between Elastique algos vs this. I will keep y'all posted.

 

I remember sonny boy, when Dolby S came out and it was all the rage. Most just used it on the stereo master deck but some studios with profits had 24 or more channels of it. It was an option on sony, otari and studers. But then ADAT hit the streets and that changed everything.
Sorry just reminiscing.

 

Did not read every comment in the thread, but here are my 2 cents:
Having owned a tascam portastudio mk3 myself, I'd say the pitch shifting is really good, If you're looking for a 4-track cassette recorder, I would definitely go with the Portastudio's.

The noise is heavily dependant on which type of cassettes you put in. The tascam portastudio mk3 would not even play type 1 casettes for that matter.

Personally, I got the 4-track to achieve a lo-fi sound, it gave me actually the opposite: crystal clear recordings.
Though, there are models from portastudio which can give you that warbly, lofi sound, there is a whole range of cheaper decks which can do just that. So in the end I just bought a normal cassette deck.

For pitch shifting I use the SONY TCM-400 (a portable cassette recorder ) Sounds good IMO, and the noise is not bad at all if you EQ a little. I love its warmth, would never sell it.

 

@~2% THD. With brand new heads & fresh, perfect tape.

Which ones? Modern DAWs use 32-bit float math & oversampling (internally). Do this simple test:
1. In a DAW of choice, load an audio clip & render (export) it.
2. Slow it down by 50%; Render that.
3. Reload both in your DAW; speed the slow/long one up by 50% (make them exactly the same length, sample-perfect)
4. Assign each one to a mixer channel, Invert one & sum them in your mixer (there'll be a button, something like "invert phase" or "polarity"). The result (if the two clips are perfectly aligned) should be the digital artifacts you're trying to avoid.

Result in my Fruity Loops Real Studio Grownup Producer Edition
Doesn't show much, but enough to see that it's far less than the 2% THD+ you'll be adding with a cassette deck.

*not if you care about the end result. Cassette decks were always consumer, never studio gear (other than some DAT decks). Even portables were reel2reel. Don't buy unless you enjoy playing with old hardware (my fetish, won't lie).

 

i cant really give you advice but i can tell you about my tascam portastudio 414 mk2 that i got by a friend, it surely is fun to use, and it makes you a bit more creative (by taking your options ;) thats why i love it.

but i had issues with the gain, my unit didnt send things out, that came in- the output was way quieter and different. thats why i dont use it.

but the sound was really nice.

the dolby thing took almost any high end away, of course you use that stuff only on a bass track or so.

really tape is a science itself.

sometimes its just smarter to say "well here is my daw and i can go crazy on it with 100 channels and thats it"

but sometimes you might want to do the opposite- then you take out the tape and use the magic 4 channels

 

Well, I surely didn't buy my Akai GX-75 for mastering...

I bought it for fun purposes. To record a loop, or just something I think may benefit from recording it to tape. So I'm not bothered by THD or wow and flutter, but maybe only with too much noise so I use Dolby C all the time. This Akai also sports Dolby HX-Pro which helps with giving the recordings more dynamics. Lovely thing to play with. Sometimes it's just the right thing to do.

Still, I wouldn't part with thousands of quid to buy a really good reel2reel. Only if I had a cupboard full of money.