Good topic @Andrew we can tell what we appreciate and voice our concerns, all while being constructive through propositions...
I like our forum, we could indeed be more focused on stuffs related to music.

If you have questions regarding daws, fxs, instruments, theory, praxis.....Don't be shy !
If you have answers...Well bring them on !
A few tracks you need test subjects for ? We are all ears !

We'll get back on track, I have no doubt.


PS : don't feed the troll(s) !

 

The song, the album, or the band? Love it!

 

Interesting topic, Cat is one of a kind, whatever issue I had or anyone have with him, he pour his whole being into this place and that was felt right away, from first days, so much passion and dedication, he made things done and progress, he was involved in every thread almost on both sites, he was the reason I got active and mod, tried to follow his example and gave my best, 24/7, we were here, brainstorming, talking to people, helping out, hanging out, he knew how to bring the best out of everyone, also SAiNT, don't know how much he is involved now, but back than he was really active and that really warmed people up.

Last time I left, realized plenty of folks hated our involvement here, had some unpleasant encounters with some folks for the first time (guess they were not afraid of me anymore or whatever), it seemed to me like Bolshevik Revolution is happening, you just can't please everyone no matter how hard you try or fair you think you are.

Plenty of people said this forum reminds them of small village where everyone knows each other and new arrivals immediately become family, we even had birthday threads, there was literary people coming with their real life problems and we were there, people joining because of that same real human threads, everyone so kind and helpful, it was real community, not like KVR or Gearslutz or whatever, which more feel like some GAS anonymous than anything, this place was full of amazing people who did amazing things day after day.

But there was plenty of work behind the scenes, we read every posting and every thread, even debating to each other how to go about some stuff, there was real involvement about every little thing that was happening here, maybe we got involved too much, but results were speaking for themselves.

I don't know what happened after I left first and second time, I don't even know what is really happening now, but if you want to make this place great again, than there's need for great involvement again, clear vision and actions.

Sorry for long and useless post, someone awesome recently said one amazing thing ("We all have something to offer. No matter how little.") and that inspired me to write this, so yeah, whatever it's worth.

X

 

We can only control how we as individuals act or react, how we feel or not feel, respond or do not respond, choose to share or not to share, behave or misbehave, encourage or discourage, be kind and caring or unkind and plain nasty.

@TonyG said that there should be an explanation box for nasty or clicks that are negatives. What this does is keep the individual behaviour in check and is completely logical and sensible.
We are responsible for our own development. The music industry is full of forums deprecate and denigrate for no good end or outcome and does nothing to help the music industry or the advancement of your peers whatsoever.

In an industry being music, that has almost lost the ability to call itself an industry anymore, failing to help aspiring musicians and engineers and only crapping on them, in my opinion, does nothing but lower whatever is left of the music industry to even lower depths.

 

I don't feel I have too much to offer except occasional humor or long-winded tangentel meanderings unrelated to music.
I am not very good with names and have a hard time remembering who said what.
There is good and bad in that, but the good part is that I can't easily remember who it is I don't like.
The avatars help, but even then I don't trust my feelings seeing a name or avatar.

I have firmly in my mind only one person who recently declared he was leaving the group.
I'd responded to a thread he began about the nature of people, and I disagreed, and felt it was a matter of having certain feelings and then working up excuses to feel that way, or perhaps pure trolling.
I saw quite a few posts he made in that thread, and in others, but STILL did not make the association when I saw him post that he was leaving.
Only through that post and in looking back to see why he was leaving did I make the connection.

Well, it can be a big weakness to not identify people well, but it also makes me read with an open mind at least at the start.
Don't get me wrong ...I have strong opinions and judge others as we all can't help judging...
but i have to judge more from the content of the current post, and it makes me think: It is a weakness i wish more people had ....

The drawback is that I also don't identify well those people I like a lot...but i am aware of the problem, and feel safe to just assume i like everyone a lot unless i read something different. What is the risk in making that assumption? Who is it going to hurt if I am wrong?

[Edit] This is not my default setting ... I am a skeptic (reformed cynic) and cautious who I trust and perhaps even a bit paranoid in some places depending on the location and time of ... night.
There is good evolutionary reasons for having tendencies of false positive perceptions of threat.
But this is a music forum. I have never seen a gun in a music forum...

 

Last edited: Sep 30, 2018

Avoiding threads such as this one...
This forum doesn't need drama or garbage like this, it has always been the best source for people that know what and where to look for. The people here are awesome in every aspect: human, artistically and technically.
How hard is for people to avoid obvious stupid threads and not participate in drama?
I say, let's focus a bit more on music this time, shall we

 

Hi @Andrew, nice post

Unfortunately, I think there is no simple solution at hand. The problem is that if you change AS forum (too much) you will kill it's soul. It will become just another technical sterile place for Hi-Fi-Ego engineers.. we have enough of those around.

Humble advice for the mods: don't change the law on a one-case basis (Romans, i think..;) and in a hurry. You may end up with really unwanted results (it is just hard to predict what consequences rushed decisions may have in the future). Still, you have to keep balance, recognize what is just a tad off-topic, humorous chat and, on the other hand, a thread that is bound for disaster.. tough job, I admit!

So, who is to blame? I say, no one in particular.. the world is changing, and IMO - not always for the better. That reflects on our forum too.. what we can do is sometimes take a step back and take a deep breath before acting. Not easy.. still training ;)

Good luck - to us!

 

That's how I've been perceiving this forum up until recently and since the moment I joined, even before when I was a lurker, as soon as the whole Catalyst sh***fest stopped (I discovered the forum at this particular moment in time) it did become this magical place....It's personaly why I joined.
I don't think it's linked to specific persons (well for the positive part, for the negativity a few persons shine at bringing it through various means). It's about our actions and our involvement. Honestly let's not idealized the past too much, there were fights and disagreements even when the forum had more activities (I remember epic trollish theorical non sense between froggy and pinky, with froggy going half insane in anger, lol, that was entertaining)....But at heart, indeed, I think there was a kindness to the place, this need for it to be the place where every lost producers, artists or engineer could check in to get a warm welcome, tons of advices, or just a few laughts during a brief breather in the middle of the maddness which is our everyday life.
I have never seen this place without drama. Never, ever. There was always requests, troll threads, misunderstandings and conflicts between a few members...Always.
The positive outnumbered the negative, people of good will were doing more work than the people with destructive instincts. There will always be good people, it doesn't matter who they are, but if anyone of good will is in despair because of what he or she sees in the thread on AZ all day long, the best way to change that course of action, is to check in and make sure the positive outshine the negative. He or she has to maintain this special spirit of AS through his contributions here, his or her actions, his or her help to others, there won't be a magical rule that will suddenly automatically revive what we once had. It's just about being there and chipping in to make the forum what we want it to be. Newbies, veterans, each and anyone can jump in and take his share.

 

Straight suggestion, my friend: Create a system to earn one's right to a nasty, disagree, or dislike rating. Say, for instance, for every given number of likes, you are allowed to downvote or rate negatively. That would enforce appreciating the good before one can bash others. And whenever someone presses "dislike", "disagree", or "nasty", a window should appear asking to state a reason, maybe offering a number of sensible choices. That way, the person who gets disliked has a better chance to understand why the heat before they fire back. It also means a few more steps before negativity, not to discourage the voter, but to give them more time to reflect on the reason why they'd give a thumb down.

 

It's a good idea, the lurkers downvoters are indeed an issue, and this would be the best way to handle that.

Also for the reccurring problem of member throwing vaguely music related topic out there, with bait titles for their thread and no content whatsoever except a link to an article (not by them) or a yt video, no comment, just a "what do you think ?"....Well it should be mandatory to express its own opinion before throwing any debate (seems logical), as well as to formulate a clear question/topic related to the content they posted (also logical, at least to avoid off topic comment, a topic is good thing to begin with)....

 

I disagree with the members who think threads should be closed when things they don't like start happening. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you're offended by something, tough shit - you chose to read it so learn from that and go and read something less offensive to your delicate sensibilities, or watch some funny cat videos on Youtube instead. Don't run bleating to the teacher demanding that nobody else be allowed to see it. By demanding censorship you make things worse for everybody in the long run.

Personally, I find threads like Judge Dredd's recent outbursts extremely amusing, as do many others judging by the fact that only the most popular threads appear in the AS feed. It's entertainment and it's free. Don't spoil it for everybody else just because you subjectively choose to be offended on everybody else's behalf. It's the internet and it's full of idiots. Arguing with them is futile. Shutting them up and shutting them down gives them some perception of credibility. If you let extremists have their say, and engage in debate, eventually they will show their true colours and demonstrate their twisted nature for all to see. If you ban them they become more interesting to some people, who wonder perhaps what the authorities were afraid of that they felt the need to ban these people. (I'm not espousing some conspiracy theory here, I'm merely using real life - remember that? - as an example. People freaked out when a certain right wing ultra-nationalist was given airtime on the BBC but if they'd banned him it would have given him more appeal in the eyes of his simple-minded followers. Instead, they gave him a platform where he was clearly out of his depth, on which to hang himself. Banning things gives them a certain appeal).

An important life lesson that seems to have been overlooked by many is that there are lots of different people out there and some of them might disagree with you.

Oops, didn't mean to drift off into a rant there so I'll close this with a more important question - why is the word "internet" always flagged up by spell-checkers on the internet?

P.S. I still think the infantile ratings system needs a "crybaby" button.

 

Thank you all for your replies, I'll reply back in the evening.

 

@Andrew ... Lovely post...

I am a relatively new member here... About 9 months old...

Ive been part of other forums in the past... So, believe me when I tell you nothing beats this forum for the education and feedback one receives and the great music one hears...

As with any online forum, there are disagreements and sadly, the inevitable trolls and obnoxious folk who try to derail proceedings... But these are ubiquitous to any online community and the best way to deal with them is to ignore their existence completely... Any response to their trolling is like fanning the flames of destruction...

This last week has seen the departure of some of my favourite members... Some who Ive interacted with personally and some whose posts I love reading... And that is very sad... For good folk to leave just because of some silly online bickering... I hope and pray these guys will reconsider and rejoin us.

Meanwhile, I give my word that i will do all I can to maintain and build this wonderful oasis in the internet desert!

1 suggestion -

Remove any negative ratings... If someone has an issue with something someone has written, let them either discuss it on the forum or report to moderators if its that bad... Else these negative ratings are used for casual trolling/ bullying...

 

Last edited: Sep 30, 2018

@Talmi Yeah, this place was magical even before Cat and after him, as you said, it's result of communities involvement which start with individual, so it's important to focus on individuals and sometimes put the end of some of their behavior/actions.

I barely remembered any drama circa 2012 except with famous The Messenger who terrorized us on daily basis with fake accounts, but nothing major, you would have like few opinionated members who cross the line quickly, so they were out of most threads in matter of a blink, again, we were involved in almost every thread and they were stopped very quickly, but they were peaches compared to what you got now.

Problem is "good" are leaving because of "bad" and bad would always win in the end of the day, because good people let it be, I'm not kind of person that would preach strangers because they aren't condoning my moral standards, but someone should, because they are free to be toxic without much consequences, especially if their toxic behavior isn't breaking any law, being an ass isn't a crime, giving middle finger and yelling from your car and so on, still that kind of people are majority these days and make this world unbearable sometimes.

So you let few of them run free on forum, yeah, look how many will let it be and move on, plenty, in the end of the day, you are loosing few good members on every bad member whose toxic behavior is spilling all lover, but that's reality sadly, unless you start putting end on middle fingers and yelling, that's when they start to behave or move on.

 

Amen, brother

 

I agree about closing threads in general, BUT i always return to the thought that someone is paying for this site ... and I feel it should be up to them whatEVER happens here. I have no RIGHTS here whatever.
Freedom of speech is perhaps the most important right a society can have, but ... this site is not society, AND it may be a good thing it is not.
Freedom of speech is critical for maintaining a free society, but it's often a brutal and nasty process of vicious fighting to work out compromises for difficult problems.
IF a group of leaders could be trusted to make wise decisions (or a "benevolent dictator" or "wise king") that WOULD be a better thing.
But no one is smart enough to BE wise in something as complex as society.
So, we MUST have the offensive things dragged into the open and fought over.

So, do those who run this place want it to be just like a free society?
I don't think the problems inherent warrant it ... but if the owners of this site WANT it to be... it's their choice.

Regarding a "crybaby" button: I LIKE that and think it is humorous, even if I was hit by it a lot... BUT it is "namecalling" straight up.
Not sure if it's a good idea to promote that without even the effort required to come up with a name to call...

 

I like that idea, but I think the "Disagree" button is useful.
It doesn't carry the implications of "Dislike" or "Nasty" ... but is it needed?
Perhaps lack of positive votes is enough indication...

Anyway, it seems that the buttons are not so much a problem and the actual words in replies, trolling etc. is more a problem.

Well, maybe that is just me. I only looked at my own profile page yesterday and noticed the ratings...
It's not that i don't care what others think of me ... but I don't worry about the ratings.
I don't much look at others reputations / profiles, but maybe I am an oddball.
I look at posts...but I have a poor memory for names anway.

What is the effect if some troll gives me lots of bad reputation votes?
Will i get flagged for the moderators or something?
I really don't know...
Maybe I have been bullied but didn't realize....
Is it bullying if the person doesn't notice?

 

I agree with @Kinghtsurfer. I would say remove at least this nasty and this dislike button for instance. Is for nothing good in my opinion. You can always tell on a normal way if you disagree. There is no button needed for that in my opinion. You will only get negativity and troubles with it. And maybe people could be even more shy or don't want to post anymore, because they are afraid of getting negative ratings. Negative buttons is not positive. So I think they should not be there.

I also think moderators should try to be more strict. There is a lot of childish behaviour, aggressive fights, discussions and very clearly annoying trollers lately with no actions. Some people love it, but for me I don't like it. Of course nobody is perfect, but it's good to talk about it and therefore I appreciate the post from @Andrew so we together can make it better

 

Last edited: Sep 30, 2018

I like the idea of moderators being strict...but I don't envy them ...i wonder how much work it is to moderate this site.