Hello good folks of the audiosex community.
Do any of you have experience or use a 3-way studio monitor system in your studio/s ?
What would you recommend ?
If so did the mid-range driver improve your mixing/mastering projects dramatically ?
I'm currently looking at the Neumann KH 310's.
My budget is around $5000-7000.

if you want share your experiences & thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

 

what monitors do you currently use?
i hope you have have propper roomtreatment already

 

on a bedroom kind of studio i have the jbl lsr 305's (studio c lol)
on studio b i have the Neumann kh120 & in the past the focals cms50's
studio b is acoustically treated so yes

 

sounds GOOOOOOOOOOD mon! :D

if money was no issue for me i would go for these https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...sm9-3-way-powered-midfield-monitor-right-side or some barefoot deluxecreamypants lol

but but but i love my jbl 305

 

or these ?
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...pro-dual-7-inch-3-way-powered-studio-monitors

 

There is no studio monitor, no matter how expensive it is, that’s immune from room problems. I’ve recently re-listened to Focal SM9, Adam S3H and PMC Two Two 6, in a local dealer’s room of monitors, small sized room, absolutely no acoustic treatment and 40% of the room just glass, the rest just concrete.
It sounded like I was sitting inside a Phaser plug-in right in the middle of it’s 100% wet value lol. I swear they all sounded so bad that I ended the “demoing” in less than 3 minutes. They all sounded like budget monitors made in a China village using improvised manufacturing tools and “borrowed” electricity. A properly treated room with a shit ton of bass traps, take the bass traps far more serious as the regular wedges won’t do much wonders without the bass traps, the acoustic treatment will basically allow you to hear what the monitors can provide sonically, cause if the room generates phase cancellations then all those little and beautiful details that a higher end monitor can deliver as an extra for the price will not be present at all. -1 +1 = 0. The reflections in your room can be the “ -1” waveform that will clash with the direct sound waveforms (+1) from your monitors. What arrives in your eardrums is the sum/clash of both direct sound from your speakers and the reflected sound from your room/walls. Equals 0 and a pretty much phased and bad sound.
Always remember this rule: The sound that reaches your eardrums is the result of the sum between direct sound of the speakers and the reflected sound caused by the room itself (-1) + (1).
If you remove (-1) from the equation by treating your room !properly! then you have more of the direct sound (+1) which your speakers are supposed to provide you with.

Now back to the topic itself, I suggest you (personally) to try the Eve SC307, Eve SC407 and Eve SC408 (those last two ones require a fairly spacious room to get their magic popping.)
Best bang for the buck would be either EVE SC307 + EVE TS110 10” sub which comes with a very handy remote control that can allow you to control both the satellites and the sub or Filtering settings right from your chair, the sub has a passive radiator so it’s a bit more room friendly than a ported sub.
Or either Eve SC407 + TS112 12” sub.

If you can try these combos in your room (some dealers here in UK can borrow you the monitors at home to test them in your own room for a fair judgment) but only do this after your room ticks all the acoustic treatment criterias.

I’ve been through demoing many monitors, I’ve picked EVE SC307 myself, I’ve liked them above Genelec 8050, Adam A77x and even Focal Twins. They sounded the smoothest, well balanced and musical. It wasn’t like the other ones were far behind but you know, most monitors tend to be lifeless and technically sounding, analytical and boring, but with these Eves I felt like they really nailed a beautiful balance between accuracy and musicality that brings shivers and goosebumps, ear fatigue is a thing of the past with them, smooth highs even when boosted to match the room response, they still reveal ugly mixes effortlessly, even when browsing through my sounds libraries I was able to spot so many low quality drum kits and samples that weren’t that obvious with my previous Dynaudio or Yamaha HS8, therefore better monitors not only allow you to mix better but they also help you with your judgements during the production process, to pick the best/highest quality samples from your library for that particular song, cause as we already know.. you can be a great mixing engineer and mix a song as best as you can, but you can do NOTHING to polish turds if the samples and sounds choices for that song were poorly picked in the production process, unless you replace the soundsource itselt.

Evorax

 

I love my Neumann KH 310. The outstanding thing about these is (imho) that they have a closed design, so the low end is 'dryer' than the usual bassreflex design. thus making them less demanding for acoustical treatment of your room.
But I'd strongly advise to run one production on rentals before investing that amount of money. I invested in a set after I run serveral sessions elsewhere and found that my mixes never sounded better. Somehow they show what's to do without being a pain in the ass, even after several hours I don't get as tired as with some other brands i met along the way.

 

Well said,
Regarding your KH310, i've heard the original/old model from Klein + Hummel in a friend's studio during some sessions, overall pleasant sound but both me and others tended to spot some strange thing about them, that the sound was upfront in a way that would mask the reverb tails and it would lead us to end up drowning the mix in lots of reverb bcause we'd think there wasn't enough.

Obviously, that's the old model from way back when Neumann wasn't owning their brand yet.
I bet that the new Neumann's model is far more improved. Can you let us know what you think about it sound wise if you'd have to describe it? Thanks!

Evorax

 

What he said.

 

(EDIT: I answered as if Evorax was the OP, sorry for that, i leave it that way, what I wrote is still interesting for Xyfsp)

That's interesting! In general, I tend to use too little reverb. So maybe they make me dial in the right amount. That somehow shows that in the end there is no better or worse just the right tool for that one engineer. I know the old ones from Klein & Hummel quite well, I'd say there is not such a big difference. OK, they heat up the room better and drain more power, but the difference I hear could just be the studio acoustics. Sadly i've never directly compared them.

One important thing: The first I do is setting the switches on the backpanel to quite some high end roll off. While fellow colegues of mine set them to a boost.
That's a matter of taste, but depending on the settings they had there your decribing them quite 'upfront' could be caused or cured by that switch.

Another thing, i don't know if we should put it in the 'upfront' corner: they really tell you whats between 1 and 3khz. But somehow thats a neumann/klein&hummel thing, the kh120 behave similar.
Lets say you want to dail in 2,3khz, bell, q not too low. On neumann i hear a change from +/- 2-3 db, on my genelecs I hear the difference from +/- 5-6db.
sure one thing is the 3 way design, but neumann has its tweeter take over where most of the other brands have them too - at 1,8khz. Though they manage to truly monitor that frequency range. I guess they did a great job on the crossover filters.

So if you get to those KHs again or have a closer look to the new neumanns, don't be shy to fiddle with the settings. Even if 'your' setting is having them the strongest high end roll off possible, there is nothing wrong with that. They still sound transparent in that setting, it's a little hard to describe why I'm sure that you wont dail in too much high shelf... I'm pretty sure you won't...
But that's why it's so important to have a try before investing.

 

Last edited: Apr 2, 2018

@Evorax thank you ,do you know any distributor in the U.S / ? for Eve Audio ? i know about these monitors....i once heard the sc208's in a studio
how much for the sc307's /?
sc3012's i s the ultimate desire
i was also looking at the new focals but i've heard there is a problem with them(shape range).
Vintage King in L.A is where i will hear some new monitors.

 

Thank you for your answer!
Also looks wise i do like the more modern touch of the Neumann's revision more, i'll definitely give them a listen in the future to see how it woud compare against my actual 307s. I know what you mean about being able to notice the slight eqing changes while mixing, that's exactly one of the thing that i like about my actual monitors, being able to regonize even down to half a db when EQing.

That's why i recommended the OP to try them himself without telling him in depth about its sonical behavior.

The thing EVE nailed amazingly well was the budget allocation of the speaker design/manufacturing.
They didn't lazer-cut any fancy waveguides and batman like shapes for the cabinet, many people would call the EVE speakers either boring or really minimalistic looking, but the company itself made this risky move on purpose (i guess this is the thing that Heinz didn't agree with Stenz, as he used to go for shiny woofers and fancy cabinet corners on most of their Adam speakers ranges to please and visually influence the potential amateur customers).

Most of the cost of an Eve speaker goes exactly where they thought it would matter the most in terms of sound fidelity, amps, drivers, even a 192Khz Burr Brown digital converters with a limiter in the signal path to protect the speakers from mic preamp accidental signal bursts and alike and a much more flexible control over the speaker's filters that would adapt it best to suit the room. When hooked up to their Subwoofer range, you can actually make the filtering/crossover/phase adjustments right from the sweetspot without going back and forth behind the subwoofer's cabinet to flip switches and stuff, which allows you to get to know exactly which setting will make sense the best in your room.

Also the bass ports on the EVEs are big and rectangular far more efficient than the noisy front ported ADAMs which's never been done right.(except their new S line)

One downside on those EVE speakers (up to model SC408, but the flagship models 3010 & 3012 are better in this regard) is the modest sweetspot that will not seem as big, as the speaker itself has no waveguide for the tweeter, although the stereo image is fine and wide and it didn't suffer from this, the stereo image it's actually impressive and the 3D positioning of the instruments in the mix it's actually even better than the new HEDD monitors, you just have to be in their sweetspot and you're fine.

You're still getting sonics and fidelity that you'd normally get from a higher range price point due to this budget allocation trick pulled by EVE. They don't care about Batman looking speakers, they just care about the sound and the amount of fidelity you'd get for your money spent that wouldn't be possible to get from other monitors in the same price bracket.

When it comes to midfields or mastering main monitors, one thing not many people talk about is the big EVE flagship models 3010 and 3012. I've personally shooted them out against ATC 150 and i was blown away to realize that they provided the same amount of details and fidelity, with a slight character difference as every speaker has its own sonic signature, but i still tended to get drown into the musical soul on the EVEs than the ATC. And we're talking about 7.000 pound a pair of EVEs mastering flagship speakers vs 20.000 pound a pair of ATC mastering speakers.
And for the money, don't get fooled by the price thinking that the ATCs would be more flat or accurate in the frequency response than the EVEs, look at the mastering EVE SC3010 freq graph:


And now compare that with Two18 model from Amphion, speakers more expensive as they're passive and require a separate amp investment:




Even the few times cheaper SC307 from EVE it's more flat than the Amphions:


(different lines means different placement options & off-axis response)

I'm not trying to prove that one speaker is better than the other, i'm just trying to show examples of how a better budget allocation in a design and manufacturing of a speaker can bring more to the table in terms of sound and accuracy.

I apologize to y'all for my too long in-depth view on this matter, but hopefully someone would find it useful along.

Ultimately, as we both stated it... They have to try most of them monitors they can afford in a particular price range, right inside their room where they'll spend most of the time making music and decide for themselves which ones they like the most. Different people - different taste.

Evorax

 

Last edited: Apr 2, 2018

Ordered the sc307 for a test run and possible replacement of my sc208...After reading Evorax posts I am curious to hear this guys, btw the sc208 sound stellar. Was thinking about the Avatone Abbey, they look promising 35hz to 34k...

 

If you want that extension under 40hz I suggest you to go for a TS110 from EVE, it has a passive radiator so it’s room acoustics friendly and the incorporation with the satellites is so good and tight that the full range freq response will feel like a whole and weighty. When I tested 307 + Sub ts110 I I was tayloring and optimising the response straight from the seating/sweetspot position so I knew where to set the crossover and phase response for my liking. I kinda emphasise this “remote control” aspect because I didn’t know how important it was until I returned the TS110 because I already had an Yamaha subwoofer HS8 that I used to couple my ex-Yamaha hs8 satellites and I thought I could still use that one for a while until I buy 2 x TS112 (to mimick the Amphion’s BaseOne stereo subs setup). Tbh, the sub response of TS110 was on another level compared to Yamaha’s in terms of sound, Yamaha hs8S is ported with a driver firing downwards, while the TS110 has no port only a passive radiator that makes the whole response feel more tighter.
Anyway. If you have the room size but you don’t necessarily want a sub, SC408 will reproduce the extended bass nicely. I might sound like an Eve fanboy but I’m actually more of an Amphion fanboy and I chose the Eves cause they were closer in terms of “musicality magic” that drowns you in and gets you goosebumps. Many monitors brands are excellent at a high price point but not all of them has a musical soul. Take PSi for example, they sound so technical that you can almost tell there’s a particular number of drivers and crossovers that makes the sound, while speakers like Amphion or EVEs feels like a whole and really impressive + accurate sounding at the same time.

Evorax

 

Thanx Evorax for all the insight, I am not a pro so the 408 are already pocket heavy, I would love to have the Neumann KH310 but are more than double of what i'll pay for the SC307 (had a great deal) I have a 24 sq/mt room that has treatment, still needs more tweaking but the sound it's already good. Also for what I have red from your posts looks like the sc307 are the ones for me, I may add the TS110 at some point in the future, but I'll have to treat more my room for that.
One question Evorax, when you assign the bass freq cone to the 307's you choose the internal cones or the outside ones?

 

In that price range I decided to go with the HEDD Type 30 over the Adams S3H for their transparent sound. I have always found the Adams to be a bit colored on the highs. I could not be happier with the HEDD. I have always found the Adams to be a bit colored on the highs. With that said, I suggest that you test as many models as you can in your studio if it is a possibility.That should be the optimun way to do it.The interaction with your room is going to be playing a big part, a crucial one at that, in the way you perceive the sounds emanating from any monitor. Make the decision with your EARS in your studio not with your eyes based on what I or other members,manufacturers and reviewers tell you.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Apr 9, 2018

One of the good things with the new ADAM S3H are the different setups, which can easily switched. There is a "classic" which resembles the sound of the S3A which is very "ADAMish" but there is also a pure setting which frequency response is flat and very neutral. That is the setting I really love.Never heard the HEDD though

 

I agree, S3H are great sounding midfield monitors and anybody investing on them would be very happy with that decision. I just happened to be able to evaluate them both of in my room before I made the purchasing decision. To my ears, in my room the HEDD sounded more transparent. Different room or different listener and the decision may have been different.

 

I had the same opinion when i head the Type 30s against S3H, the Type30 sounded a bit cleaner like there would be less low mids (but not necessarily in a bad way) and with a better sense of the mix elements location in the stereo field. I did like the sweetspot on the S3H as well but it wasn't much difference between the 2 in that regard. Still, i lost myself in the sound of the EVEs in the end. I'm a producer more than i sound engineer but i still mix and master quite regularly and the SC307s were the best balance of accuracy/super flat freq response and musicality that kept me inspired. I also pay for some tunes to get mastered by some great pricy mastering engineers and since i moved on the EVEs since 6 months ago the MEs told me my mixes actually improved a lot, like there's barely much to do on their side rather than their general "second opinion" kind of adjustment/compression and maximizing the loudness. With the Yamahas and Dynaudios that i used to have before, they said my mixes tended to sound either on the muffled side (the highs on the Yammies are harsh so i wouldn't be surprised if my headache must've manipulated me to do so) or either leaving a hole in the 3-6khz still cause that area felt kinda piercing on them. I used to believe that the new Yammies inherit some "mixing talent" from their old NS10m legends, but in fact they're not that similar. The Yammies are still better than the Rockits from KRK tho.

@plasticvibe i've ended up placing the monitors in the vertical position. It allowed me to move the speakers a bit more far away from eachother in that placement fashion which improved the sound even more in my room.On the switch at the back of the speaker i selected the option that made the top woofers representing the lows/subs, while the bottom woofer representing the mids/low-mids, due to my maximum chair height and also that's the lowest my speaker stands could go so directivity wise that was the best setup for me.
Make sure you get your ear around the woofers to make sure that it's been set properly.
And yeah, SC307 are an amazing bang for buck, they've focused the actual cost of the manufacturing/design on what matters the most for the sound, that's why there's no waveguides or fancy cabinet corners on them.