Strange problem & I have no idea what is wrong.

all plugins from certain developers now freezing in all my DAW's.
They were all working fine before.
If I re-install any of them they cause a freeze upon scanning when launching any DAW I have.
Windows freezes completely so I have to kill power to PC and reboot.
it's both VST2 & VST3 for the affected developers.

have reset BIOS defaults, uninstalled/re-installed a few of the offenders, some of these had been working for a long time & only now cause this freezing.
And it's all plugins from the offending vendors.. an all or nothing situation.
Tried installing Plugin Doctor but it freezes as well when scanning the VST folders

Could it have anything to do with recent R2R Root Certificate which I've installed?
Unless it's a windows update issue I don't know what else would cause this?
I can't roll back to an earlier Windows release to confirm.. current version is Win11 24H2 with last cumulative update being (KB5065789)

Has anyone seen this before?

DAW's
Sequoia 17
Studio One 7.2.2.107056
Reaper 7.35
Plugin Doctor 2.3.8

Vendors (all plugins from these vendors cause freezing in the above DAW's)
Kush Audio
Empirical Labs
Kalifornia Dynamic
LiquidSonics
Matthew Lane
MIA Laboratories
Neural DSP
Softube
oeksound
SSL
Strymon

 

I don't know every single plugin in your problem list, but those I do know of are all iLok plugins. Are all of them formerly iLok protected, and do you have any iLok plugins which are still functional?

Otherwise, I would probably remove Plugin Doctor first. Then I would go to the easiest to reinstall DAW, and remove that one. Then the next. You probably have customizations done to Reaper so I would do that one last.

Or, I would backup the VST2 plugins and remove all of them. You have to figure out a way to work your problem methodically like that. Of course, if someone just says your R2R root certificate could be the problem, I would reinstall that first. Or some other "magic" Windows fix.

Make sure your firewall is blocking all the plugins that are problematic still. Figure out the way to troubleshoot that will be the least pain and suffering reinstalling stuff, if you have to go that route.

When is the last time they all worked? What did you do since then?

 

I would NOT remove ANY DAW. The fact that it happens with all of them implies the problem is elsewhere.
First suspect (as you say) is iLok. Until that issue is investigated there is no point uninstalling DAWs.

THAT is on the right track, but no need to REMOVE any.
If you are unable to figure out if iLok is the cause, then this might be an easy step to test and easy to just move them back.
Just make folders to hold the VST2 & VST3 for testing (perhaps named "Hold-VST2" & "HOLD-VST3") and move the suspect ones into there so they are not scanned and see if it solves the problem.
Because it happens while scanning, it's likely a good test.
If that solves it, you know it is the VSTs that are triggering it, but of course other data may be involved.
I don't know how iLok works, but if they are ALL iLok, then obviously you have to fix it at that point.

I think this is another "non-destructive" thing to do, and perhaps the FIRST thing to do.
I would not expect iLok to crash the computer if it communicates online, but then I would not expect iLok to crash a computer no matter the situation, so something is not normal.

Yes, important to think about that, as you have done at least partly by considering the R2R root certificate.
Although that in itself seems unlikely, trying to determine what has changed is THE main point.
SOMETHING has CHANGED...

 

If you actually read my post, instead of just going sentence by sentence; you would probably see my point is to work methodically and do things in some kind of order. "Figure out the way to troubleshoot that will be the least pain and suffering reinstalling stuff, if you have to go that route." The words "or", and "otherwise" are generally tipoffs to review the situation, not steps.

You skip this sentence even though it says exactly that. "You have to figure out a way to work your problem methodically like that. Of course, if someone just says your R2R root certificate could be the problem, I would reinstall that first. Or some other "magic" Windows fix."

You cannot approach troubleshooting a problem by saying you have 3 DAWs that potentially are creating conflicts somehow and affecting plugins. The easiest way to conclude that is not the problem is to use Bluecat's Patchwork standalone and see if any of the plugins are even loading correctly outside of the three DAWs.

"It's all randomly broken!" is not how you fix anything. Nor is taking single sentences and not intelligently considering Context. There is no point in this sort of post other than pointing out you have chosen to ignore what you are reading.

The first detail to figure out is if they are all iLok plugins. That is called establishing a common cause of failure. If the R2R root certificate is the problem, why would only iLok plugins cause the issue if they worked before installing the certificate? They probably wouldn't.

But it could

Spoiler

on Windows a root certificate can similarly interfere with iLok plugins, though the mechanism is slightly different:

1. • iLok License Validation on Windows
     • iLok and PACE License Support rely on secure communication over HTTPS/TLS to validate licenses.
       
       
     • Windows maintains its own certificate store (separate from macOS), which is used to verify these connections.
   • How a root certificate can break it
     • If a new root certificate is added or replaces a system certificate, it can:
       • Cause TLS validation to fail for the iLok License Manager.
         
         
       • Prevent plugins from checking licenses online, resulting in errors like “license could not be verified” or “plugin failed to load.”
     • Expired, untrusted, or misconfigured enterprise certificates can have the same effect.
   • Common scenarios
   • Installing software that adds its own root certs (VPNs, corporate security tools, intercepting proxies).
     
     
   • Malware or “fake security” tools that try to intercept HTTPS traffic.
     
     
   • Sometimes antivirus or firewall software installs a root cert for HTTPS scanning, which can break PACE’s validation.
   
   Here’s a safe way to test whether a root certificate is interfering with iLok on Windows (without removing everything):
   
   1. Identify Recently Installed or Suspect Certificates
   
   1. Press Win + R, type certmgr.msc, and hit Enter.
      
      
   2. Navigate to Trusted Root Certification Authorities → Certificates.
      
      
   3. Sort by “Issued To” or “Expiration Date” to spot any recently added or unusual certs.
      • VPNs, corporate software, and security apps sometimes add certs here.
   2. Backup Certificates
   
   • Right-click any certificate you might remove or disable and choose All Tasks → Export.
     
     
   • Save it somewhere safe in case you need to restore it.
   3. Test Without the Suspect Certificate
   There are two ways:
   
   Option A – Disable Temporarily (Safe)
   
   
   1. Right-click the certificate → Properties → “Enable/Disable Certificate” (Windows 11; in older versions, you may have to delete temporarily).
      
      
   2. Restart iLok License Manager and your DAW/plugin.
      
      
   3. If the plugin works now, the certificate was likely the cause.
   Option B – Use a Clean User Profile
   
   
   1. Create a new Windows user account (Admin).
      
      
   2. Launch iLok License Manager and your DAW from that account.
      
      
   3. If it works, the problem is in the old user’s certificate store.
   4. Check TLS Connections
   
   • Open a Command Prompt and run:
   
   curl -v https://www.paceap.com
   
   
   • If you see certificate errors, that points directly to the root certificate causing interference.
   5. Restore or Remove
   
   • If the test shows a specific certificate is the culprit, you can either:
     • Delete it from the Trusted Root Certification Authorities store.
       
       
     • Leave it disabled for testing, or move it to a separate store if needed by other apps.
   Tip: iLok support is aware of certificate issues, so if you want to avoid trial-and-error, you can also run iLok License Manager in diagnostic mode (iLokDiagnostic.exe) to see detailed connection errors.

 

Last edited: Oct 15, 2025

Maybe post your system specs if you really need help. You can't just say "hey, those things that worked are now completely locking up my PC" and you don't offer any details about the PC.

I'll give you a list:
- do you have a dedicated GPU? What kind?
- what is your CPU?
- what type of RAM and size?
- have you checked if your storage is okay? Try CrystalDiskInfo
- have you tried using a restore point on Windows? This is time-sensitive, so if you can restore, restore while it exists.

 

In addition to the answers you've already been given, I've sat here thinking what I'd do if that happened to me.

My first step would be to retrace back to when was the last time everything worked, and think what was the last thing I installed which could have caused this. Now whilst I would never for one second think R2R would create something that could cause disruption deliberately, There is always the possibility of something which could do so by mistake. Everyone is human..

So when asking could that R2R root certificate have caused this, whilst my initial thoughts are no, you cannot exclude that from being the problem just yet. So yes, I would remove that first and then work back to what was installed before that. A windows update you say . Now that could DEFINITELY be the issue. Can that be uninstalled? That would be my next step.

As the others have said though.. You need to have a plan of attack to fix this, and keep to that plan, because otherwise if you fly about aimlessly removing stuff. You might never find the issue.

Good luck.

 

The AI response to KB5065789 known issues is:-

Spoiler: ai

KB5065789 has known issues that include some Digital TV and Blu-ray/DVD apps failing to play protected content, the "Compare info for both files" button in the file copy dialog not working, and a taskbar, Start button, and system tray sometimes disappearing. These issues may cause copyright protection errors, playback interruptions, black screens, system freezes, or the inability to open the comparison window.

Notice the bit about system freezes

 

Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2025

The R2R cert should not cause issues such as these.

More than likely your issue stems from the garbage ms updates. You do NOT need that OS updating autonomously. The huge problem with this kind of thing is that because the POS-junk updater pretty much does what it wants when it wants, you as the end user have very little to go on when trying to pin down where/when things started going awry. All you really have is the system logs (maybe) to possibly point to a time and date when a fatal "update(s)" took place and screwed up the system. The issues are compounded by the fact that there that is so much useless junk installed (and telemetry exchanged) in a single "update" session it's virtually impossible to figure out which of the so-called update(s) is/are the one(s) that caused the problem in the first place.

Proper course of action for this - turn OFF updating entirely. Turn off the defender (a/v and firewall), turn off all telemetry, ms store, hyper-v, all gps tracking, cloud indent, remote access (from the internet), remote registry, secondary logon, "user experience" junk, wallet, bitlocker, etc, etc. Do not log the OS into a ms account (ever)... Favorable scenario - remove the internet from the equation entirely - but if you absolutely must have internet on the same production machine, regulate the access the machine and software components have to the internet (firewall). All you should need is a good third party firewall and an a/v that you have complete control over. A simple batch file can regulate internet access by turning off the network interface when you are involved with production work or when internet is not actively needed.

Best course of action - rebuild that machine with a proper "optimized" image where you can negate the installation of all the junk that causes windows to be a PITA privacy and security risk for the end user. It may not be possible to rebuild the machine given your particular circumstance, but you get the picture. The windows OS can be made safe for you and for your creative consciousness, but it takes a bit of work to get it there. Building the system with OEM install images and running them out of the box is bad news all around.

Optimal course of action is to get a beater machine (they can be had for cheap at pc recycle stores and used computer depots) for internet access and use the current machine totally OFFLINE to do your production work. Once completed, this course will almost certainly guarantee you will not have similar issues again.

These are general good practice points that would remove much of the confusion involved in your scenario, and could quite possibly prevent it from ever happening again in the future. The blanket freezing issues point to a problem with the basic system which, let's be honest, none of the stuff you are installing messes with the system in this fashion (or it shouldn't). The updates most certainly do mess with the low level system basics, and if allowed to run amok much of the useless updating can and does take down machines on a regular basis.

 

Last edited: Oct 15, 2025

Thankyou for all the responses.

When i said R2R Root Certificate i meant R2R's Network Block Runtime which is the more recent release.
RC has been on my machine for a while without issue so apologies there.. I was up very late typing that post.

I uninstalled Network Block Runtime, disabled Malwarebytes Windows Firewall Control & disconnected from the internet but no change.

I updated the MIA Laboratories plugins with a more recent release and the new install is working fine. The difference is in the protection schemes with the newer release NOT containing METAFORTRESS.

I went through all of the failing plugins protection schemes and can see METAFORTRESS is common to all. They have a combination of protection systems like WRAPWARDEN/iLOK, FUSiON/iLOK, METAFORTRESS or WEBAUTH/XOR/BASE64/ED25519, METAFORTRESS but only MF is present in EVERY case.

I went through about 20 working plugins and found MF was never listed in their protection schemes while the various others were, so it looks like MF is the issue but i don't know why it is suddenly freezing. Maybe recent windows updates. Retore points aren't disabled for my C:\ drive but they don't go back further than yesterday for some reason.

I'm going back through what i've installed in the last week and rolling back what i can but suspect it's more MS related so will try and disable as much security stuff there as i can and see what happens. I've taken a disk image so can roll back easily enough if i break it.

Also wanted to mention problem still exists when running Windows in Safe Mode (no networking) and when i try and launch the plugins inside a host like Blue Cats Patchwork.

 

Last edited: Oct 16, 2025

You accuse me of NOT reading your post, which I obviously DID as I quoted it section-by-section and dealt with each section on the merits of each. You accuse me of skipping sentences that I INCLUDED in my post.
Why do you accuse me like that?
I DID read through your whole post and I actually agreed with a lot you said, but perhaps YOU are the one who is not reading.

My point regarding uninstalling DAWs is CORRECT and it seems a poor thing to suggest.
Now you say it was just some kind of example of how to "work your problem methodically".
Whatever.

 

The AI thinks it was the Windows update. Can you restore your system using a restore point?
Be sure to disable updates or pause them for a longer period of time.

How to use System Restore on Windows 11
www.windowscentral.com/how-use-system-restore-windows-11

Spoiler: Source: Grok KI - How to Uninstall KB5065789

How to Uninstall KB5065789
Cumulative updates can be uninstalled via built-in Windows tools. This reverts your system to the previous build (e.g., 26100.6584 from September's Patch Tuesday). Always back up important data first, and restart after uninstalling. If the update fails to uninstall, use the Recovery options below.

Method 1: Using Settings (Easiest for Most Users)

1. Open Settings (press Windows key + I).
2. Go to Windows Update > Update history > Uninstall updates.
3. In the list, find 2025-09 Cumulative Update Preview for Windows 11 Version 24H2 (KB5065789).
4. Select it and click Uninstall.
5. Confirm and restart your PC when prompted.

If it doesn't appear, ensure you're not on a newer build—check your version in Settings > System > About.

Method 2: Using Control Panel

1. Search for Control Panel in the Start menu and open it.
2. Go to Programs > Programs and Features > View installed updates (left sidebar).
3. Locate KB5065789 in the list (sort by date if needed).
4. Right-click it > Uninstall.
5. Follow the prompts and restart.

Method 3: Using Command Prompt (For Advanced Users or If GUI Fails)

1. Right-click Start > Terminal (Admin) or search for cmd and run as administrator.
2. Run: wusa /uninstall /kb:5065789
3. Confirm the uninstall and restart.

If Uninstall Fails or You're Locked Out (Recovery Mode)

1. Boot into Recovery Environment: Restart while holding Shift, or go to Settings > System > Recovery > Restart now under Advanced startup.
2. Choose Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Uninstall Updates > Uninstall latest quality update.
3. Select KB5065789 and confirm. This works even if you can't log in.

After Uninstalling

• Run Windows Update to check for the latest stable patches (e.g., KB5066835).
• If issues persist (e.g., SSD corruption rumors tied to other updates like KB5063878), use System Restore or an in-place repair via Media Creation Tool.
• To prevent auto-reinstall: Pause updates in Settings > Windows Update for up to 5 weeks, or exclude KB5065789 via Group Policy (Pro/Enterprise editions).

If this doesn't resolve your issue or you meant a different KB (e.g., the October one), provide more details like error messages for further help. For official notes, see Microsoft's KB5065789 page.

 

Last edited: Oct 16, 2025

Reading as much as I could through this thread to get the gist of your issues, honestly, the variety of plugins you have listed indicates to me, if it was me in your position, that the issue is not the plugins.

Have you tried the basic windows scan and repair tools yet? It very much to me looks like an O/S issue not an application issue.

In an administrative CMD prompt or Power Shell you can copy and paste the commands from inside the inverted commas:

1. Run "SFC /Scannow"
- wait for it to finish then run

2. "DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /RestoreHealth"

Reboot then if nothing changes, sorry you may need to look elsewhere, but it does seem to me like an O/S or H/W issue and not a plugin issue.

 

i'll try those suggestions, but in my second post i said the commonality between the problematic plugins is they all have METAFORTRESS in their protection list. All the working plugins don't have MF so this is somehow central to the issue but where to from here?

 

The problem is it was working before and then stopped working. What happened to your PC in the meantime?
You say you did a Windows update, so it's likely that the new Windows is having problems with it.

Windows 11 25H2 — What Music-Makers Should Know
https://medium.com/@12264447666.wil...h2-what-music-makers-should-know-5695d74a34a0

As is common with Windows updates of any type, you may face a few common issues. First, audio drivers & ASIO behavior can change; your devices won’t work randomly, and you may not have a fix for months, or ever. The older your hardware or software is, the more likely it won’t work after the update — plan for that, and if possible, hold off on updating if you don’t need to.

As usually, within the first 6 months or so, some of the early adopters will have shared the bugs, and some of them may be fixed. Community threads (DAW and audio forums) already show reports of ASIO interfaces misbehaving, menus flickering in DAWs, or drivers becoming unstable after 25H2 installs. It’s pretty safe to say Windows pushed this out without actually fixing all the bugs and did little int

Uninstall Recent Windows Updates:
Go to Settings > Update & Security > Windows Update > View update history > Uninstall updates.
Target any from the last week (e.g., cumulative KB503 something—October 2025 patches often tweak security/kernel for better AV integration). Sort by date, uninstall the newest 2-3, restart, and test.
Pause updates temporarily (same menu > Pause for 1 week) to avoid auto-reinstalls.

Spoiler: Source: Grok KI - How to Uninstall KB5065789

How to Uninstall KB5065789
Cumulative updates can be uninstalled via built-in Windows tools. This reverts your system to the previous build (e.g., 26100.6584 from September's Patch Tuesday). Always back up important data first, and restart after uninstalling. If the update fails to uninstall, use the Recovery options below.

Method 1: Using Settings (Easiest for Most Users)

1. Open Settings (press Windows key + I).
2. Go to Windows Update > Update history > Uninstall updates.
3. In the list, find 2025-09 Cumulative Update Preview for Windows 11 Version 24H2 (KB5065789).
4. Select it and click Uninstall.
5. Confirm and restart your PC when prompted.

If it doesn't appear, ensure you're not on a newer build—check your version in Settings > System > About.

Method 2: Using Control Panel

1. Search for Control Panel in the Start menu and open it.
2. Go to Programs > Programs and Features > View installed updates (left sidebar).
3. Locate KB5065789 in the list (sort by date if needed).
4. Right-click it > Uninstall.
5. Follow the prompts and restart.

Method 3: Using Command Prompt (For Advanced Users or If GUI Fails)

1. Right-click Start > Terminal (Admin) or search for cmd and run as administrator.
2. Run: wusa /uninstall /kb:5065789
3. Confirm the uninstall and restart.

If Uninstall Fails or You're Locked Out (Recovery Mode)

1. Boot into Recovery Environment: Restart while holding Shift, or go to Settings > System > Recovery > Restart now under Advanced startup.
2. Choose Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Uninstall Updates > Uninstall latest quality update.
3. Select KB5065789 and confirm. This works even if you can't log in.

After Uninstalling

• Run Windows Update to check for the latest stable patches (e.g., KB5066835).
• If issues persist (e.g., SSD corruption rumors tied to other updates like KB5063878), use System Restore or an in-place repair via Media Creation Tool.
• To prevent auto-reinstall: Pause updates in Settings > Windows Update for up to 5 weeks, or exclude KB5065789 via Group Policy (Pro/Enterprise editions).

If this doesn't resolve your issue or you meant a different KB (e.g., the October one), provide more details like error messages for further help. For official notes, see Microsoft's KB5065789 page.

 

Last edited: Oct 16, 2025