The latest release of Nasko N-Tilt on sister site piqued my curiosity. I am asking here the same question I have asked there.
There are looking really good plugdata plugins released recently on AZ. Their GUI look like pro commercial plugins in comparison to crap-like-a-toy-look Max For Live amxd plugins. Do they sound like a pro level? Are they mighty plugins? Do these two platforms differ in functionality, capabilities, features and quality? Are there any restrictions on what they cannot do or intended for specific tasks or areas, e.g. audio, video, graphics?

 

If you're just using the plugins then the platform doesn't matter, apart from the fact that Plugdata runs as a standalone and VST/AU/CLAP plugin, and Max/MSP is either standalone or within Ableton.

They sound pro level when operated by pro level people, as is normally the case. And there are good stuff done on both Pure Data and Max/MSP, but better to try them out to see if they're good for you.

Max for Live plugins look like that because they often to use Ableton's GUI components, which tend to shy away from eye candy to be more clear an concise. Whether that looks better or not is down to taste.

As for how the platforms differ... well you could write a book on that. They're similar enough to feel comfortable using either having practiced on one. If you do video then you want Max/MSP, but unless you're good at coding audio stuff again the platform matters little, pick one.

 

They're both 64 bit floating point. Math is math. A plugin built with the same implementation will sound the same.

Lots of pretty things don't sound good. Beyond vibe, the art and rendered objects have (or should have) 0 relation to the sound good bits. Try using both on the dev side and then see which one you feel is the pretty one

PlugData is open source, basically a gui wrapper for PureData. MAXMsp is commercial. Take a wild guess which one has waaayyyyyyyy more ready built objects, robust documentation, and the biggie... doesn't rely on 3rd party libraries for core functionality. As an end user... that doesn't mean anything for you in regards to any specific plugin on either platform. But when it comes to any particular plugin existing in the first place, a commercial dev's first choice isn't going to be PureData for a number of reasons... but the actual quality of the sound isn't one of them. (to be clear, there is plenty of cool stuff on puredata)

Both og code bases have the same author. MAX was commercialized about when Plugdata started. PlugData has nowhere near the infrastructure that Max does. Doesn't mean PlugData is 'bad.' Different philosophies, vastly different sums of monies attached.

 

Both are great.

Some of my all time favorite devices are done in max, like this one

The UI is not always as terrible as you make it out to be. There are many dev's who go above and beyond the built in ableton native UI elements. There are countless max devices, many of them awesome, many free. I routinely use probably 30 or so, but have another 50 on top of that i use often enough, as well as another 100 on top of those that i will reach for occasionally and load randomly (using a max for live device to load random plugins haha).

Plugdata has been getting more traction lately, largely in part to Ewan Bristow, or at least thats what i attribute it to.

, i've bought all of his devices except for his version of soothe, all really great, fun and experimental stuff.

The main difference between the two is that Plugdata is universal, and Max is either for Ableton or dekstop only. Although.... Max does have the ability to create plugins now. I have only seen a couple dev's do it, but expect we will see more in the coming years, as its still somewhat new.

There are no real restrictions as to what they can do, its really up to your imagination and skill level. If you can dream it, you can create it. You may need some external code to incorporate into your device, but still, they are quite powerful.

Here is a good place to search for max devices https://maxforlive.com/index.php , https://isotonikstudios.com/about/ there are also a ton of dev's that may not post their devices on the max forum, and host on bandcamp, grubhub, ko-fi etc. Im in the max ecosystem for years now, so im much more integrated with it than i am plugdata, so im not really sure where to search for devices, but im sure there is a similar forum or place you can find devices.

 

If you think that most m4l has poor GUI or functionalty you have not dug deep enough.

In overall comparison max for live has a lot more unique and useable things to offer than plugdata currently has.

The only advantage of pd being that it is DAW neutral.

Several of those from Ewan, despite being interesting concept and nice GUi cause me CPU spikes in a very weird way, only experienced with plugdata plugins, thus making them unuseable.

I suggest, if you are on Ableton Live as your main DAW, to look into the m4l plugins of Fors.fm, Novel Music, Mudjaq, Kentaro, Manifest Audio ... to name a few with great functionality AND great UI.

 

I find some m4l plugins really buggy. and I not talking about the free ones. its really frustrating to buy something and then end up deleting it because it either dont do the job it supposed to do or it messes up a project after saving and reopening it. I try to use m4l plugins as little as possible. and when I use it, I always bounce the track and delete the m4l plugin before saving. I never heard of plugdata but I hope it will be much better in that regards.

 

These platforms are not inherently buggy (Ableton ships a lot of M4L addons and they all work fine), but they're complex like any other programming environment and a lot of moving parts means more chance of issues (it's very easy to do things sub-optimally when you've got a lot of ways to do it).

M4L and PD developers are often small teams (most likely just a single person) so they tend to be very responsive to bug reports. So yeah, it's annoying as shit, but please report bugs to small developers as they most likely benefit the most from them and you'll get what you want in return.

 

I would pick both, they might have different environments and different workflows, but if you try making something in each platform you can get a feel for which one may have more functionality, but there is one difference, Max is 2 gigabytes whereas plugdata and pure data is only about a gigabyte on Mac. Max 4 Live devices look like that because they share design elements from Ableton but the devices with more commercial prices will be likely to look better than other max devices. I haven’t seen many plugdata plugins but the ones I’ve seen look very good for being intermediate commercial plugins and a lot are from the same guy and they’re usually spectral in nature

 

So is it another player in the ballpark, the pure data? I have seen the name but know anything about it. Do they have audio plugins? Nothing on sister site.

 

Like @ddpp said, Pure Data is the original and standalone programming environment, Plugdata is a port of it to VST etc. plugin formats with a new Max/MSP-ish GUI and keyboard shortcuts, but it also includes some externals (addons/libraries in Pure Data speak). But anything that Plugdata does Pure Data can too, they're fully compatible.

 

you tend to get more quirky/creative/happy accidents/unconventional/interesting processors written in these DSP designers as the barrier for entry (knowledge of math, DSP, C/C++) is considerably lower, thus attracting more creative types - but the overall quality (speed, correctness, looks) also tends to be lower compared to 'traditional' / professional plugins.

as a user, there's no point in deciding for one or the other. if you find something that's useful to you, use it. if you find the same thing done as a traditional plugin, it's probably going to be much nicer on your system's resources.

 

I had an entire thread on PlugData as a 'replacement' for things like Reaktor or MaxForLive and whatnot on KVR until one of the Karens (I think their nick was Terabyte or something like that) on its site dragged me into an argument that, interestingly, when someone (with their own vendetta) complained about where the thread was going, I decided to lodge a complaint and the entire thread got deleted and I got banned. But I digress... sort of...

PlugData, if recalled, is PureData that can fit in any DAW and is also FLOSS (Free/Libre/Open-Source Software). As such, by using it, you're not only getting a well-established excellent environment (that apparently doesn't only do sound), but a 'philosophy' centered around open and free access to things, beyond the crony-capitalist plutarchy. That of course is at odds with some outfits that might rely on that kind of model, like KVR. But, and as I've said before, the crony-capitalist plutarchy model is already dead. It's a zombie, just that some of us don't realize it yet. It's a musical chairs game that's running its course.

So that being said, if you want to take that sort of take into your music for example, then PlugData is a great way to do it there too, along of course with the usual suspects, as well as, for examples, The Usual Suspects and The Surge Synth Team and so forth.

AFAIK, because PlugData is essentially PureData, we may have access to many, if not all of the 'patches' (synths, etc.) already done for Pure Data. There may be libraries/archives and whatnot for those floating around online.
If they don't have fancy GUI's, it may be trivial to add them to those very patches. I spoke briefly once in the comment section of You Tube under a video of a developer's PlugData synth or effect and asked them about that, about the GUI part of it, and I seem to recall that that's what they said-- that it's relatively easy to implement and all the tools are already there-- embedded in PlugData once you open it in your DAW-of-preference.

By my experience, and it's a long one and one Terabyte may have caught before KVR took down my thread, the FLOSS folks are a different kind-- a different 'feel'-- perhaps given that they ascribe to an open philosophy, but maybe part of that is my own bias. Still, though, it's something to think about; how far do we want to apply our internal philosophies to what we do and how we are.

Naturally, that's what artists do all the time.
The ones who compromise less on their values/ideals, at least in some environments, may be the ones more likely to get kicked, banned, imprisoned and so forth.
____
"One time a thing occurred to me
What's real and what's for sale?
Blew a kiss and tried to take it home..." ~ Vasoline, by Stone Temple Pilots
____
"Where does the answer lie?
Living from day to day
If it's something we can't buy
There must be another way..." ~ Spirits In The Material World, by The Police

 

Last edited: Sep 1, 2025

you mean "puredata".

but everything else you said... is exactly how things are.

everything made with max, pd, supercollider, flowstone, csound or reaktor will "sound good" when the author knows how to code.

only synthedit is a different story, it does not really let you do custom programming, it is just a bunch of modules.

 

Last edited: Sep 1, 2025

ok, i have looked into that tilt thing, and as it seems it relies on compiled objects by volker böhm for butterworth and shelf, which are 25 years old. so no actual coding involved, kind of. why i am not suprised...

BUT this does not mean those things would be something terrible. you would find the same in 80% of free C++ plug-ins, too - and probably also in more-than-you-would-think commercial plug-ins.

the only critics which is a bit more serious is that there is no oversampling used. in 2025 we can afford to calculate that for the little bit of less distortion it gives you.

 

I just found this:

https://www.automatonism.com/the-software

67 modules
I imagine it could be brought into PlugData and a GUI added to help organize the rats' nest... although it doesn't look too bad and reminds me of Sunvox.

 

it is not difficult to do that yourself, that is what plugdata is all about.

 

so thats what happened , i always wondered where that thread went cause it was an amazing resource i stumbled on when i was looking for a reaktor alternative that wouldnt explode my toaster computer at the time ( and i personally dont really like using abelton).

plugdata all the way since it isnt confined like max m4l

 

slutz and kvr are toxic not the other way around .they should get snatched away of their monopol but it wont happen . another prime example of the new world dynamics in www economys.
sorry that had to be said .

dont go there if you not really need too .slutz dont need noone anyways anymore .

www ones were pure freedom and full of diversity, infinite deep stacked .,people are so feckn dmb they becoming their own supressor in clothes of the oh so good.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Sep 2, 2025

my guess is it must be also a thnig between protocols/or however between live and max for a good part .old story of not improving but bring new shiny shit out .max is way further down in line for ableton devs,it doesnt count if max would have double/tripple amount of users cause it doesnt cash in for ableton like new newb DAW buyers .