I use Ableton as my main DAW, mostly in a linear/arrangement workflow. But now I’ve got to do some live looping and I was literally about to order an APC40 ..and I’m having second thoughts

I’ve been comparing Ableton Live and NI Maschine as loopers. while Ableton is technically a looping powerhouse, there’s something about Maschine default behavior that I find much better at least for my workflow (esp. MIDI)

E.g., with "auto-grow" ON (default), it starts looping at 1 bar, waits till you start playing and expands as you play. Then, when you stop playing, it automatically trims the pattern to the last bar that actually has MIDI info. Just feels way less 'stressful' than Ableton

here's a quick screencap of what I mean

Anyone have experience with both? Missing something here? Any thoughts or ideas appreciated!

*btw, I already have Maschine HW

 

Does MIDI Capture not work essentially like this? I rarely use it... mostly in happy accident 'oops' moments in arrangement view, but its always listening to any armed or monitored midi track and seems to function exactly what you're looking for. Works the same in arrangment or session I believe. Clips do not have a predetermined length with capture unless you're explicitly inside a preexisting one. Clip end is based off your playing. If transport is running it'll use song tempo, if it isnt running it'll adjust the project tempo to the captured clip. You can disarm/rearm to clear the buffer.

 

I use Maschine as my sketchpad for making tracks. Technically I just use it as a looper and then transfer everything over to Bitwig, which incidentally also has some really nice live looping features when recording loops:

Maschine in Bitwig works beautifully by the way and working with them in tandem is kind of the best of both worlds if youre into both groovebox and daw workflow.

 

hi artic. one question: how are you "arranging" your tracks then? do you just activate clips and sections and record?

 

Spoiler: Source: Grok KI

Since you’re already familiar with Ableton Live’s arrangement workflow and own Maschine hardware, it sounds like you’re weighing the strengths of both for live looping, with a lean toward Maschine’s intuitive MIDI looping behavior. Let’s break this down based on your description and needs, focusing on live looping and MIDI workflows, while considering your hesitation about the APC40.

Maschine’s Strengths for Live Looping
You’ve highlighted Maschine’s “auto-grow” feature, which dynamically adjusts loop length based on your MIDI input and trims empty bars. This is indeed a slick, low-pressure way to build loops live, especially for MIDI-driven performances. Here’s why Maschine shines here:

• Auto-Grow and Trim: As you noted, Maschine starts with a 1-bar loop and expands as you play, trimming to the last bar with MIDI data. This reduces the need to predefine loop lengths, making it feel organic and responsive for live jamming.
• Hardware Integration: Since you already have Maschine hardware (likely a Maschine Mk3, Mikro, or similar), the tactile control over patterns, scenes, and parameters is seamless. The pads and knobs make real-time MIDI input and tweaking intuitive.
• Pattern-Based Workflow: Maschine’s scene and pattern system is great for live looping, letting you quickly layer and switch between loops without diving into menus.
• MIDI Flexibility: Maschine’s MIDI handling, especially for drums and melodic phrases, feels immediate and forgiving, which suits improvisational looping.

Ableton Live’s Looping Capabilities
Ableton is a looping powerhouse, particularly in Session View, but its approach can feel less fluid for your specific MIDI-driven workflow compared to Maschine. Here’s how it stacks up:

• Session View for Looping: Ableton’s Session View is designed for live looping, with clip launching and recording that’s ideal for building arrangements on the fly. However, it requires more setup (e.g., predefining clip lengths or manually stopping recordings), which can feel “stressful” compared to Maschine’s auto-grow.
• MIDI Looping: Ableton’s MIDI clip recording doesn’t dynamically adjust loop length like Maschine. You either set a fixed length or manually trim post-recording, which can disrupt flow during live performance.
• Hardware Control: The APC40 (or APC40 MkII) is excellent for controlling Session View clips, scenes, and mixer parameters, but it’s less focused on real-time MIDI input compared to Maschine’s pads. For MIDI looping, you might still rely on a keyboard or Push 2 for better note input.
• Flexibility: Ableton excels at integrating audio and MIDI loops, effects, and external instruments, making it more versatile for complex live setups beyond MIDI looping.

Comparing Workflows for Your Needs
Given your preference for Maschine’s “less stressful” MIDI looping and existing Maschine hardware, here are key considerations:

• Live Looping Style: If your live looping is primarily MIDI-based (e.g., drums, synths, or melodic phrases), Maschine’s auto-grow and pattern system is likely more intuitive. Ableton’s Session View is better suited for mixing pre-recorded clips, audio loops, and MIDI, but it requires more premeditation.
• Hardware Needs: The APC40 is a great controller for Ableton’s Session View, offering clip launching, faders, and knobs for effects. However, it’s not as strong for direct MIDI input compared to Maschine’s pads. Since you already have Maschine hardware, you might not need the APC40 unless you’re heavily invested in Session View for live performance.
• Integration: If you want to combine both, you can use Maschine as a plugin within Ableton. This lets you leverage Maschine’s MIDI looping within Ableton’s broader ecosystem, routing Maschine’s output to Ableton tracks for further processing or mixing. This setup could bridge the gap between Maschine’s intuitive looping and Ableton’s live performance flexibility.

Potential Downsides and Workarounds

• Maschine Limitations:
  • Audio Looping: Maschine is less intuitive for live audio looping (e.g., vocals or guitar) compared to Ableton, which has robust audio clip handling.
  • Scalability: Maschine’s scene-based system can feel limiting for complex arrangements compared to Ableton’s Session or Arrangement View.
  • Workaround: Use Maschine for MIDI looping and initial pattern creation, then export stems to Ableton for live arrangement or audio looping.
• Ableton Challenges:
  • MIDI Loop Stress: As you mentioned, Ableton’s MIDI recording lacks Maschine’s auto-grow/trim feature. You can mitigate this by setting shorter default clip lengths (e.g., 1-2 bars) and manually extending or overdubbing, but it’s less seamless.
  • Workaround: Use Ableton Push 2 or a MIDI keyboard for faster MIDI input, and practice clip launching to streamline live looping. Alternatively, explore Max for Live devices that mimic dynamic loop length behavior (e.g., custom loop recorders).

Thoughts on the APC40 Purchase
Your hesitation about the APC40 makes sense if your primary goal is MIDI-driven live looping. The APC40 is tailored for launching clips and controlling Ableton’s Session View, but it’s not a direct competitor to Maschine’s pad-based MIDI input. If you’re leaning toward Maschine’s workflow and already have the hardware, the APC40 might be redundant unless:

• You plan to heavily use Ableton’s Session View for live performances with pre-made clips or audio loops.
• You need dedicated faders/knobs for Ableton’s mixer and effects in a live setting.

Instead, consider:

• Ableton Push 2: If you want a controller optimized for Ableton and MIDI input, Push 2 offers pad-based MIDI sequencing closer to Maschine’s feel, plus deep integration with Ableton’s workflow. It’s pricier but more versatile than the APC40.
• Using Maschine with Ableton: Route Maschine into Ableton as a plugin to combine Maschine’s MIDI looping with Ableton’s live performance tools. Your existing Maschine hardware should suffice for control.

Recommendations

1. Stick with Maschine for MIDI Looping: Since you already have Maschine hardware and prefer its auto-grow feature, use it as your primary MIDI looping tool for live performances. It’s clearly aligning with your workflow.
2. Integrate with Ableton: Run Maschine as a plugin in Ableton to leverage both systems. Record Maschine patterns as MIDI or audio clips in Ableton’s Session View for further arrangement or to add audio looping.
3. Reevaluate the APC40: Skip the APC40 unless you specifically need Session View control for clip launching or mixing. If you want a controller for Ableton, test your Maschine hardware with Ableton’s MIDI mapping first, or save up for a Push 2 if budget allows.
4. Explore Max for Live: Look into Max for Live devices (e.g., “Looper” or custom MIDI recorders) to add Maschine-like dynamic looping to Ableton. Check the Max for Live library or forums like Reddit’s r/ableton for community devices.
5. Practice Your Workflow: Test a hybrid Maschine-Ableton setup in a rehearsal to confirm it suits your live looping needs. Map Maschine controls to Ableton for clip launching or effects to reduce reliance on additional hardware.

Missing Anything?
You mentioned a screencap, but I don’t have access to it (text-based interface here). If it shows specific Maschine settings or workflows, feel free to describe them further, and I can tailor suggestions. Also, clarify your live looping context (e.g., solo performance, band, genres) for more targetedizaspecific advice.

Final Thoughts
Maschine’s MIDI looping workflow seems better suited to your needs, especially with your existing hardware. Unless your live set demands Ableton’s broader capabilities (e.g., audio looping or complex arrangements), you might not need the APC40. Try integrating Maschine with Ableton to get the best of both worlds before investing in new gear.

What’s your live looping setup like (e.g., instruments, venue size)? That could help refine the advice.

 

I use Ableton for live looping all the time.
And what makes me stick to it is the audio looper device (I usually loop audio from my guitar or synth, not midi). I use my MPD32 to control the audio looper device as if it were a looper pedal.
Some problems I find with Ableton for audio looping:
- Ableton is on the heavier side. You have to be very picky with the plugins you use on your live set up in order to avoid small freezes, hiccups, audio dropouts (in a live situation, a 2 sec. freeze can spoil a performance). But my system is 10 years old, so... take this with a grain of salt.
- The audio looper records with a tiny tiny little latency (because you need audio playback monitor on in Ableton, and when you have this on Ableton introduces a little latency when recording - it is not noticeable most of the time, but when I play some type of tight funk guitar this becomes noticeable).

As for midi only, no problems at all - I find Ableton session view superb, I can control loops from my MPD32, pre define their length, follow action behavior, etc. Tried Maschine a long time ago, but Ableton was more intuitive even to assign my MPD controls to it.

Why not try one inside the other as Maschine can be used as a vst plugin? Experiment and see what works best for you!

PS: If Maschine had an audio looper, I'd give it another try.

 

Oh yes, makes sense. Yp, I used Session -> Arrangement long time ago. Last 10 years it shifted to 90% Arrangement mainly bc my music changed. But for looping I'd use Session ofc..

AFAIK (and tested) it expands automatically, but it doesn't WAIT for MIDI and doesn't TRIM to MIDI content. Basically punch IN, punch OUT

Yeah, I was expecting Ableton to do everything Maschine does - and then some. And it does a lot (especially if you consider the audio looper). But now, like you noted, the Maschine workflow just seems more fluid..

 

Thank you for reminding me of this. If I understand correctly, it's basically what this guy (Side Brain) does (?):

Short:

Explained:

Still feels like a bit of a workaround, and dedicated hardware like the APC40 MkII kind of misses the point. I'll try playing around /w it.. oh and I think it doesn't work for audio.

 

Yes, Capture is MIDI only. To do looping with audio sources there are a number of methods.

You can use one track as a monitor, that track then feeds X number of tracks. Little bit of track routing and controller mapping and now you have infinite punch in punch out looping.

Are you using Live Suite? Max makes all the difference. Built in Looper device within ableton does similar, just in a single track instances.

Have you looked at all the 3rd party looping and sampling devices available? Examples run the gambit from one button mashing to fuck it, I'll do it myself. Clyphx does not require Max and works with all editions.