Hi!
Where do you upload your project files/songs to create a timestamp that on this date you already had this intellectual property?
Free dropbox account has only 2 GB...

Obviously, we don't want a cloud storage service to disappear 10 years from now (making us lose the timestamps of our files) - do you recommend to stay away from less known cloud storage services? (as they might disappear in the future?)

How about using e.g. rapidgator? (not for sharing files - just for creating timestamps)

cheers!

 

Btw. do you care about having a timestamp of your intellectual property? (by uploading it to some cloud service)

 

Recommended methods for timestamping:

1. Blockchain-based services (very reliable & future-proof)
Example: OpenTimestamps, OriginStamp

Advantages:
Uses the Bitcoin blockchain or other distributed systems – extremely difficult to forge.
Even if the service provider disappears, the proof remains in the blockchain.
You don't have to upload your file, just create a hash.
Disadvantages: A bit more technical, but there are good instructions.

Tip: You can hash your file locally (e.g., with sha256sum) and then have this hash stamped.
2. Send yourself an email (less secure, but well-known)
Send yourself the file to an email address, e.g., Gmail.
The date in the email header counts as a timestamp.
Caution: Easily manipulated, not legally binding.

3. Publishing on platforms with public timestamps
YouTube (unlisted), SoundCloud, GitHub (for code/projects), or Bandcamp.
Advantage: Public URL + release date.
Disadvantage: Partial publication, possibly undesirable.

4. Cloud storage as proof (with limitations)
Cloud services like Dropbox, Google Drive, OneDrive, or even Mega.nz store upload data.

But:
Not legally sound, as providers could alter metadata.
With free accounts, long-term reliability is questionable.
If the service disappears in 10 years, the timestamp is worthless.

Rapidgator?
Not recommended. It's primarily a file hosting service with a reputation for file sharing (sometimes illegal).
No focus on long-term archiving or documentation.
Higher risk that the service will go offline at some point.
Recommendation (combined strategy for long-term security):

1. Create a SHA256 hash of your file locally.
bash
Copy
Edit
sha256sum my_song.wav > hash.txt

2. Upload the hash (not the file!) to a service like OpenTimestamps.

3. Store your file offline + in multiple secure backups:
- External hard drive
- USB flash drive
- Local NAS
- Cloud only as an additional backup

4. Optional: Upload the song to YouTube/SoundCloud (even private/unlisted) for a secondary time signature.

Conclusion:
- Avoid dubious or short-lived cloud services (like Rapidgator) for legally relevant evidence.
- Blockchain-based timestamps are currently the best and most future-proof option.
- Think of backup + timestamp separately: Store the file and the evidence independently of each other.

 

Thank you!
Could you tell more about the hash and Blockchain-based services?
The actual project file (like Ableton's project file) and the wav renders of a song should not be uploaded to these OpenTimestamps, OriginStamp services?

Are there step by step tutorials on how to create such a timestamp properly?

 

✅ What Are Hash and Blockchain-Based Timestamping Services?
Blockchain timestamping services like OpenTimestamps and OriginStamp use cryptographic hashes to prove that a piece of data existed at a certain point in time without storing the actual data on the blockchain.

Hashing Explained

• A hash is a unique digital fingerprint of a file.
  
  
• Even the smallest change in the file will result in a different hash.
  
  
• You generate a hash (e.g., using SHA-256) from your file and only the hash is sent to the timestamping service.
  

Blockchain Timestamping

• The service takes your hash and anchors it into a blockchain (like Bitcoin).
  
  
• This means it becomes part of a tamper-proof ledger.
  
  
• Later, you can prove that your file existed on or before the date the hash was recorded on-chain.
  

Should You Upload Your Project Files or WAV Renders?
No. You should not upload the actual project files (e.g., Ableton .als files) or audio files (e.g., .wav) to OpenTimestamps or OriginStamp.

Instead:

• You generate a hash of those files locally.
  
  
• Only the hash is submitted.
  
  
• This keeps your content private while still proving authorship or existence.
  

Step-by-Step: How to Timestamp a File Using OpenTimestamps
Using OpenTimestamps (Free, Open Source)
1. Install OpenTimestamps Client

• You’ll need Python installed.
  
  
• GitHub: https://github.com/opentimestamps/opentimestamps-client
  

bash
pip install opentimestamps-client

2. Generate a Timestamp

bash
ots stamp yourfile.wav

This creates a .ots file, which is the timestamp proof.

3. Upgrade the Timestamp (optional but recommended)

bash
ots upgrade yourfile.wav.ots

This confirms the timestamp once it’s been included in the blockchain (can take some time).

4. Verify Later

bash
ots verify yourfile.wav.ots

Step-by-Step: Using OriginStamp
OriginStamp has a web interface and APIs. Here's how to use the web interface:

1. Go to: https://originstamp.com

2. Register (Free or Paid options)

3. Create a Hash:

• You can hash the file using tools like:
  
  • sha256sum yourfile.wav (Linux/macOS)
    
    
  • HashMyFiles (Windows GUI tool)
    
    
  • Online tools (make sure they don’t upload the file, just compute the hash)
    

4. Submit the Hash

• Paste the SHA-256 hash into OriginStamp.
  

5. Wait for Confirmation

• You'll get a blockchain certificate/proof after confirmation (typically within 24h).
  

Resources and Tutorials

• OpenTimestamps Documentation: https://opentimestamps.org
  
  
• OriginStamp Tutorials: https://originstamp.com/blog
  
  
• Video Tutorials (YouTube):
  
  • Search for: "OpenTimestamps tutorial"
    
    
  • Or: "Hash and timestamp music file with blockchain"
    

Use Case for Musicians
When you hash and timestamp your .als project or .wav master, you're effectively:

• Proving that you created the content by a specific date.
  
  
• Having a cryptographic timestamp useful in disputes or copyright claims.
  
  
• Not relying on centralized services.
  

 

Is there a single confirmed case where someone won a case in court using your method?

 

I'll explain my views on how proving that it's your song actually works.

Keep as much information about your song as possible.
Burn your songs onto CD, DVD or BluRay, the date will be burned in.

Protecting Music – Briefly and Compactly

If musical works are characterized by the necessary degree of individuality and creativity, they are automatically subject to copyright protection upon creation. Registration is therefore not necessary to protect music. Copyright law also allows for legal action against infringements.
Of course, it helps to prove this if you can present preliminary and intermediate stages of the finished work: sketches, drafts and rejections, the dead ends you followed, and the variants you rejected. These are usually only available to the author themselves.

It also makes sense, however, to be able to prove that you already owned the work at a specific point in time – ideally before it was broadcast to the publisher/label/TV. Where would you get it from if not by creating it yourself? There's a fairly simple and actually quite well-known process for this proof.

The "trick" is simply to involve one, maybe even two, authorities whose "footprint" is difficult to manipulate. In the simplest case, I do this by putting my work (my CD, my manuscript, whatever) in an envelope and sending it to myself, preferably by registered mail. And I keep it sealed if possible. The postmark then proves that I was already in possession of the work on the stamp date.

If you value a bit more drama or simply want to involve a third party, you can also send this package (preferably with the note "please do not open") to a trustee, such as a lawyer or notary, or hand it over there and have it stamped. If necessary, simply call the trustee. He can then pull the package with the stamp date out of his pocket and can also be considered a witness himself.

 

Last edited: May 19, 2025

Beware that the printer ink used on postal services documents becames pale with time and disappears in the end.
Anyway a deposit at a notary /lawyer / intellectual property office has more weight in court than a simple self-adressed parcel.

 

That is called "poor mans copyright" method, and people have been doing it for a very long time. It's better than nothing but not a lot. You do not want to be going into court with that as your only evidence to support your claim. It's bordering on an old wives' tale.

 

Hello @wanderer, thanks for your tip. I would also keep the project data. Be sure to burn one or better yet, several CDs or DVDs, as the date is burned into them. Put a fingerprint on it. Or include a hair for genetic analysis. You can also have witness statements transcribed and signed. A judge always assesses the credibility of all parties. I also think your idea, wanderer, with the notary is the best.

 

This trick has been used for decades...and it's called "poor man copyright", but once more -
I didn't hear if someone won a suite case with it

 

Last edited: May 19, 2025

How to Protect Your Music Against Deepfakes & AI Generators

Learn essential strategies to safeguard your music from AI threats.
Discover audio watermarking and other techniques to protect your creative work.

www.lalal.ai/blog/protect-your-music-against-ai-generators-deepfakes/

 

Last edited: May 19, 2025

It is $45 to register per isolated song or $65 per work for a collection. 'Per work' can be a collection of any number of songs you like in a grouping. Now double that because mechanical and musical work are two different things and each needs to be registered separately. If that figure gives you pause then you definitely do not have the resources to take actions in court. If a work you created and can prove ownership of (registered or not) has earned enough money to justify the expense of legal action you will be able to find representation that will work on percentage and it will be settled in an office. No lawyer who thinks they couldn't settle it would work this off percentage. If they don't think it can settle its more likely to be due to simultaneous discovery or an inherent function of composing than incidental similarity.

If it isn't a high value assets but was released through some channel of representation (traditional label, agency, etc) you can directly contact the label. An established label big enough to have a lawyer on staff will take a deeper look and eventually work it out with you if you can demonstrate clearly within 30 seconds that you're not some random nut. The majority of people in music publishing are just working a 9-5.

Mailing yourself the tape is of little if any value. Beyond it holding no established legal authority, it fails to understand that a recording and a composition are not the same thing. If someone directly samples your work then it doesn't matter who has the musical work copyright, you have the audio to show the recording was yours and that is then the basis of the claim, not the composition rights. Your pristine audio copy that can be altered to match their sampled work is your evidence. Unless they lifted the whole track, they're not materializing the rest of its context from a sample.

If you record a cover of a Rolling Stones song and post it, and the Rolling Stones themselves sample it they have violated copyright. The musical work is theirs. The mechanical is not. The inverse applies for you. Now, can you sue them on that basis? Yes. Can you get a dime out of it? No. Your strongest remedies would be DCMA and getting physical product pulled. Neither of which is likely to be the end result anyway.

On the other front for mailing yourself the tape, if someone steals the composition, your recording doesn't mean anything. It says nothing of who actually wrote it first.

Registering - Upheld by decades of tested laws that specifically detail this concern.

Mailing the tape -......uh... puff, puff, pass?

Don't let mailing the tape give you false sense of security or obfuscate what is demonstrable with what sounded good while shootin the shit with the band after practice.

 

Yes, posting yourself an envelope makes no sense as the envelope might be opened and resealed.
But if you create a reliable timestamp of just a wav recording, then you have a timestamp of not only a master recording but also of your composition. (as long as the melodies are easily heard in the wav recording)

 

You mean registering in the US copyright office? or in some other institution?

For just $130 you may register e.g. 200 songs and their master recordings?

 

But for the time of burning the DVD we can set in our computer (in operating system) any date like e.g from 10 years ago...

I heard that there are ways to determine how long ago a DVD was burned - I wonder if it's based on the date stored digitally on the DVD (the easily manipulated date from Windows settings while burning the DVD) or are there other methods to prove that a DVD was really burned X years ago

 

Better options here are registered copyright services or submitting the work to a notary or copyright organization that officially documents the work and the date.

You can also send your songs to yourself via email.

For better protection, it is recommended that you file copyrights through the copyright office at copyright.gov especially if you already have it prepared in an audio format. This type of copyright gives you more protections than just having the audio file/score on your computer.

www.copyright.gov/registration/

The EASY way to protect YOUR music

 

Last edited: May 20, 2025

Like aleksalt said, this kinda feels like a thing to help you sleep better at night but with little legal relevance, because IIRC you need to have registered copyright with the government in the first place if you want to settle your claims in a court of law (in countries where copyright isn't automatic..?).

I'd (locally) keep as many records as possible (earlier versions, project files, stems, drafts, txt files, contracts, ...), hash those (sha256) and upload the txt file containing the hashes (not the actual files) to opentimestamp, virustotal, google drive.

That way you can prove the authenticity of your files (sha256 hashes), the age of the files and the hash file itself (opentimestamp), and have your proof stored for free for the next 50+ years, because the file containing only your hashes is absolutely tiny.

Just an idea.

 

Yes and Yes. If you commercially release an album you'd want to register it again as that specific product to keep all things tidy, but solo registering is more for one off work or a work you did within a larger product. You can register however many songs you want in a single filing as the same collection, there are no articial limits in that way.

US Copyright office. There is no other organization in the US for filing your copyrights. There are orgs that will collect and enforce public royalty licensing and distributions on your behalf (ascap, bmi, etc) or handle mechanical licensing of your material (eg, Harry Fox) but they are not involved with registration --- that is squarely on you ( or an agent acting with authorization on your behalf if you get all rock stary like, lawyer, agent, etc).

 

"tape in the envelope" encompasses it all. Its just the og phrase. The methodologies may have gotten more clever, but they all offer the same legal protections and value... which is zero. If you didn't register the composition there is no data point in the system. Thats the only timestamp that matters.

To this specific point, being the first to write a particular thing does not guarantee you own that thing outright if someone else writes a song and also uses that thing. Otherwise Pachelbel's decedents would be rulers of the earth with how much they'd win in court (which if Disney gets there way maybe 400 year copyright protection will become a thing) The recording isn't the definitive edition of melodies and structures contained within your composition, that while granted copyright to you, those melodies and structures can also pop up in others work and that work is still wholly theirs with neither of you having a valid claim against the other, despite note to note similarities or who wrote what first.