hey there,so its said when using decapitator we should hit it with an input of -18.
so how i would do that in cubase 14 is put the prefader gain below channel eq to -18 then put decapitator 1st insert,then use a gain plugin after decapitator to put it up by 18 again.
is this correct way?
thanks

 

The correct way would be to use Plugin Doctor to analyze its reaction to different input levels, and then conduct a blind test with varying input levels to determine if you can discern an unbiased difference.

 

Could be.

The whole -18dB is a calibration thing, meaning in this case that if you're feeding -18dBFS into decapitator, the drive control will give you the intended range of distortion, from very subtle to really distorted. That doesn't mean that you should gain down everything by -18dB, it means that if you put a meter before Decapitator, it should read aroud -18dBFS. If your source is already measuring that, you don't need to add anything, if it's above that, you should gain it down until it does, and so on.

But in most cases this is all just "good practice", if you can get the desired sound without messing with the gain beforehand then it's fine, you don't need to bother with it.

 

it doesnt matter what you feed it. if its too hot and distorting like crazy, pull back. if you want more distortion, push more into it or use punish.

 

To answer your precise question: no. Considering your rationale about the calibration sweet spot is right, the pre-fader gain should be set at any value that brings the original source down (or up) to -18dbfs before it reaches the plugin. So, if the signal were on average -10db to start with, merely setting a gain control to a fixed -18 value would bring the gain down to -28, see? Therefore, you have to measure your gain first, and then push it down (or up, in case it's too quiet to begin with) until you reach your desired level. Should your first plugin bring the signal's gain up or down, you would need to adjust that again before it hits the next plugin down the chain and so on and so forth. As far as I can tell, nowadays these adjustments can be made with input and output gain knobs that may be found inside each plugin (as opposed to sandwiching gain utility instances in between each FX in the chain). Now, even if the so-called sweet spot is irrelevant in some or even most cases, there are other advantages in this way of doing things: 1) when comparing processed vs. unprocessed signals, you take one factor out of the problem (difference in amplitude), 2) your faders will be organized (more or less within the same range) when it comes the time for balancing and volume automation. There are other advantages, but to me these are convincing enough.

 

Last edited: Feb 18, 2025 at 11:03 PM

proper input levels matter more with some compression plugins, it matters less with distortion plugins

 

the way you structure your chain is important. you can opt to just put it on a send if you just want some (more) subtle saturation effect. If you are adding it in a regular serial insert chain, you might not want to be hitting it with otherwise unprocessed signal. You may want to put an additional digital EQ before it, or eq->compressor->decap->another eq instance. Or add it pre-compression. The drive and input levels are going to change your results because you can be adding wanted or unwanted harmonics. You are going to experiment with your settings almost every time you instantiate Decap. Forget the presets and start with the default init preset.

There are about a million YT videos about this one plugin. Watch some of them. The one from Dan Wyatt is pretty good if you can find it still. You need to be purposeful and pay attention to what you are doing with it, because it can wreck a channel; overdoing it. Unless you are looking for distortion, then have at it.

 

This kinda shit still baffles me. So we're supposed to try to track everything at an average of -18db every time or what (I'm tracking hardware samplers and synths through a console)? I don't know ANYBODY that does that. Is everybody cutting all the gain on their tracks before the inserts or?

 

Just put a VU meter as the first insert on your track. Adjust your clip gain until you get -18. Adjust any plugs after that to be at unity gain, so your out levels match your in levels.

It serves a couple purposes: You won't be fooling yourself when a plug just boosts the output and does nothing else. Analog modelled plugs will respond better in the "sweet spot" and modern plugs shouldn't care about low levels or not because they're not going to add any noise if you gain it back up at the end of the chain.

 

-18db on a VU is actually 0 on it's display. This is simply best practice for mixing anyway if you send your stuff to mastering guys. Typically my mixes end up peaking at around -6 when all is said and done, and then when the mastering guy slams to -10LUFS, it still has dynamics.

Also if you learn to mix at this level and ever add outboard to your studio, you will have a much better time. Hell, even the Elekton Analog Heat sounds like crap unless you give it a proper signal. Many people newer to mixing who buy a Heat will slam the input and wonder why it sounds like ass.

Most analogue gear likes -18db/0VU/~-12db peak. This is how they modeled decapitator and why it's recommended to feed it that level of signal.

 

Ok, but if you are tracking electronic instruments which are running to your console mixer, then to your audio interface, is it even that common to have plugins enabled?

 

Not sure if you are asking me, but since I do that exact thing, I can tell you I print to the DAW at -18db/-12db peak. Just saves me a lot of time since everything is already gain staged in for mixing.

I did a lot of remote studio work and all the best producers asked me to track in at that level, so it just became a habit. No real need to track in hot. You can slam a mixer's gain knob like a Mackie and get analogue dirt, but even then it's compensated at the fader out.

But if you recorded in a bit hot, it's all good, just throw a gain plugin on there first and get the levels under control.

I should add that there are a lot of producers who make modern EDM and genres like that who have a totally different mix philosophy that involves heavy limiting and sausaging every sound. So they will probably have a different approach then what I like to do. I make minimal techno and house so I really like the analogue vibe and a more dynamic and wide open sound. There are multiple ways to accomplish things, but it never hurts to learn the analog techniques.

 

Decapitator adds its own flavor of "harmonics/distortion". And to repeat what others in this thread have said you need to adjust to taste. This applies to the Decapitator more then other vst so learn well

 

I wasn't but your answer was my point anyway. I am not recording live sound sources where any external dsp effects need to be recorded realtime while tracking. Whatever comes off the mixer is what ends up hitting the interface; and any plugins get added during later production or mixing. So with meters on the board, and then the input levels at the DAW; all you need to worry about is good, healthy levels during tracking. It doesn't get any easier.

 

I get it, just don't understand it haha. Then again, I come from the days of tracking to tape, where we were taught to get things as fat and hot as you can on the way in. My setup is basically everything running into a 24 channel inline Soundcraft, two 8 channel/output samplers and assorted synths. I'm one of those that also 'mixes' on the way so to speak, so as I'm writing/arranging, Im also setting levels on the mixer too. I'm from the 'get your drums around -12db and balance everything around that' school of thought, so I tend to track that way too. Once it's in the box it almost mixes itself. Now you guys have me wondering if I need to go back through everything and re-do it all.

I'll have to take one of my recent tracks and re-track it this week and try it out. Most of the tracks are closer to -12/-18 but those drums are peaking at about -6db when I track them, so I simply turn them down using Cubase's fader when I start the mix and arrange the rest of it around that. Guess I'll just start from scratch and keep everything around -18 and see how it goes.

I take it in this case, with everything coming in at -18, and matching the unity gain through the plugin chain, you are solely relying on the fader to bump things up? This is where I get confused because if my fader is at 0 and my track is peaking at -18, but I need my drums at -12, at this point I'm actually boosting the fader in the mixer instead of cutting as I normally do? Using -18db as your top marker is a bit off to me, solely relying on the mastering guy for all your levels afterwards, my brain tells me 'this isn't how we learned to do this' but I see the whole 'new gen' sticking to the -18 point.. Is everyone using -18 as your 'peak level' and turning everything else down in the -20s and -30s to balance it out?

 

Last edited: Feb 20, 2025 at 2:49 AM

Cubase related:
for gain staging do not use the trim gain on the channel (long to explaine why), but put in insert #1 the plugin "Volume" (new in C14), or the plugin "Studio EQ" and take out 18 dB or whatever, then put it after and add back in

 

hmmm... why is everyone assume it is -18dbfs unless u try to calibrate it with 1khz sinewave or whitenoise.. the idea of -18db nominal level is the average of your gain signal...thats why it is much easier to use 0dbvu on vu meter with calibration -18db... aslong u get around 0dbvu on average playback of ur gain/clip/event/wave ...u already at the ballpark of -18db average level..

and for mixing chain, the practice is called gain staging, so each stage u feed into new insert just maintain average -18db
(also depending on the emulation, certain best at higher level, rtfm is the best here)... at the end of the day u still have ur fader to use your ear how loud u need it to be sit in the mix..

as for non-hardware-emulated plugs, like totally itb digital... doesnt matter, aslong u dont clip crazy distort it on the way in (unless u like the sound, you just do you)...

to over worry about this is just a speed bump on your creativity progress.. if u want to learn the practice -18db gain staging, do it before u start mixing.. level all ur gain to average of -18db on each channel...if ur DAW allowed, set ur channel peak meter to pre-fader instead of post-fader... from there u can monitor ur signal level each time it go to stages and the final touch of ur mixing, just use the fader to drive your mixing creativity with your ears and your eyes off from the peak meter.. have fun

got to go, happy mixing mixersss!!

 

It's sometimes surprising the number of people who do not even look at both, ever. Many of them expect the signal flow of their DAW to be different than it really is. So everything looks great post fader, but when flipped to pre-fader mixer the channel is already clipping.

 

you need to use gain plugins pre fader. Gain staging on a mixer has never been about setting the faders first.its about changing the gain of the sound as soon as possible. For example in Ableton, I adjust the gain of the audio in its clip. For decades zeroing out a mix means - the faders are at zero and the engineer has gain staged everything with a VU meter and a gain knob.

And actually -18db is how everyone using tape and analog gear did use to do it and still do. -18db is not literally -18. It’s typically around -12 peak, and then you can saturate your busses and typically you get up around -6 peak for the entire pre mastered mix. -18db is the average and like we have said - it equates to 0vu.

so you are leaving 6db for the mastering guy, which any decent one will ask for anyway. So I’m not really sure why you would think the mastering guy is adding a shitload of gain, when in reality, they are not. They just want headroom to compress/eq. Etc.

this is why plugins like The God Particle are popular- they allow you to hear your track at mastering levels while you mix. And if you are mixing with proper gainstaging it works quite well.

 

Optimal recommend input levels don't necessarily give you the best result. Decapitator as a plugin is seriously flawed in many other ways that affect it's output so worrying about the level being fed into it should be your last concern. It aliases like a $20 sampler from 1992 when driven.... Bt that doesn't mean it doesn't sound great.

Just feed it a signal and adjust the input level and drive until you hear something you like. Crank everything up full if it works for you.