Hello world!

Up until now, I've been working on Linux or a Windows 10 PC, and I currently have a Ryzen 5 5600G and a Nvida RTX 3050 8GB with 32G RAM. Due to the changes that are taking place in both of these systems, I have started to consider changing to macOS, recommended among audio and video creators.
Apple announced new hardware including M4 chips and mini devices in various configurations. The pricing is better this time.
My attention was drawn to the Mac mini M4 (256GB SSD / 24GB RAM).

What do I do on a daily basis?
Mostly audio but I often work with a lot of vitual instruments, synthesizers. In addition to music I program, I also work with LLM and RVC models. I don't edit video.

The current configuration is seemingly enough for me, but Mac is curious.

I don't know how to compare the two specifications, so I'm asking for opinions and advice. What do you think about M porcessors ? How is the performance in music creation, video rendering, AI run locally ? Availability of software officially and unofficially ? Software development ?

 

Expensive but fast and durable and a little safer than Windows, if you're already toying with the idea, get one of these wonder boxes.

It's small at 12.7 x 12.7 centimeters, so you have more space on your desk.HDMI, Ethernet, 2 USB-C for headphones and 3 Thunderbolt 5 ports.
Up to 2.8 times more audio effects in Logic Pro compared to the Intel Core i7 model.

Compared to the best-selling desktop PC in its price range, the Mac mini is up to six times faster at a twentieth of the size.

 

If you're after direct comparisons in benches between the 2 look at this link https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-amd_ryzen_5_5600g-vs-apple_m4_10_cpu It should be a good upgrade for you I'm still using a M1 chip and it's very fast still. Something to bear in mind is the cheapest m4 chip that comes in the new mac mini has 4 performance and 6 E cores. Not all DAWS will use the E cores so a lot depends on what DAW you're using, theres Youtube videos out there comparing DAWs showing you which uses the E cores and which don't. It will be a good computer for the money but don't get caught up in the Apple fanboyism you see online which massively exaggerate the M chips performance. As you're already on the AM4 platform you could always upgrade to a 5950x chip and just drop it in with a good cooler which will walk rings around the base m4 chip in multicore but not be as fast in single core and would be a cheaper option for you.

 

Too early too give definitive advise on the new M4 platform. 1GB Ethernet, keyboard & mouse still extra. Does look promising though (barring any software/hardware glitches).

The base M4 models are:

• 10-Core CPU, 10-Core GPU, 16GB Unified Memory, 256GB SSD
• 10-Core CPU, 10-Core GPU, 16GB Unified Memory, 512GB SSD
• 10-Core CPU, 10-Core GPU, 24GB Unified Memory, 512GB SSD

The Pro M4 model:

• 12-Core CPU, 16-Core GPU, 24GB Unified Memory, 512GB SSD

You can always take advantage of the 30 return policy to test in your workflow to make an informed decision based on your personal experience.

 

Last edited: Nov 1, 2024 at 6:19 PM

Why do you feel you need to change? Didn't you say your current system is still enough (I have the same CPU, it's powerful). Maybe we can find a solution so that you don't need to leave win or Linux.

Source?

I'm not against Mac at all, I'm also considering switching again and have used Mac in the past. but looking at the benchmarks, for example here's the M4 against the most popular ryzen CPU 7800x3d: M4 is faster on single core, but slower in multi core. And the 7800x3d is a few generations old. In a current system for the price of a good current Mac Mini you'd have a much faster CPU.

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/de/compare_cpu-apple_m4-vs-amd_ryzen_7_7800x3d

Also on Ryzen all cores are the same so you can use everything even with Ableton. On Mac M you have different architecture and you can not use all cores in all DAWs. Curious to hear where your statement comes from that Mac is up to six times faster then current gen PC?

 

Last edited: Nov 1, 2024 at 6:55 PM

Source: www.trustedreviews.com/versus/apple-mac-mini-m4-vs-mac-mini-m2-4567863

There are 3 worlds and states on earth for musicians: Windows, macOS or Linux.
Decide for yourself in which world you want to live and make music.

Dear @fnord23, I am not an agent or seller of CPUs! In general, you could say this: Every CPU manufacturer looks at what the competition is doing and if you want to sell CPUs, you have to create added value so that the customer decides on the CPU you manufacture and offer (purchase decision), so almost all CPUs will be a little faster and better than the previous ones. If you sell too few CPUs, it is a failure and you either produce better CPUs or you make losses as a company.

 

You quote a site which randomly quotes Apple saying that their newest Chip is up to six times faster then a PC for the price? My car is also six times faster then any current racing car for the price (if you measure under my conditions).
With all due respect, let's stop here, no point arguing with apple fanboys. I was hoping you would post a few insightful benchmarks maybe pointing out something I missed..
There are many builds for the same price that have about the same raw power then current gen Mac, not just one-sixth of the power, especially if you'd build a pc with 24GB ram and 512GB of ssd.
I'd be more interested in a current mac with 64GB ram and 2TB storage for the price of a current PC or anywhere near. But their upgrading prices are ridiculous.

if I use mac then it's for ease of use, status, battery or something else but not because of: But apple said it's six times faster then your PC. That doesn't make sense, as anybody can see when comparing benchmarks.

Edit: I found where the "six times faster" statement comes from. It's from some launch video advertisement from Apple and the guy was talking about the AI integration and it's uses in video editing: They claim some video editing supported by AI can be up to six times faster. I fail to see what this has to do with audio stuff.

But I know where Mac would, unfortunately, affect my DAW, Ableton can not use all cores, it would be so much slower on M.

 

Last edited: Nov 1, 2024 at 7:58 PM

In general, I think it is hard to compare processors with different architectures: ARM vs. x86_64. The benchmarks compared do not say much about the test, how it was done, whether it only concerned native programs but it is certainly some point of comparison. I am curious about the opinion of users who made the switch, their impressions and opinions.

I considered upgrading the processor to a 5950X but held off with the idea of investing in AM5 or just M chips.


As for the reasons: on Linux there is a quiet conflict over the Wayland protocol, each interested party is making its own changes. Audio plug-ins, WINE is not ready in my opinion to abandon Xorg, which is an insecure, inefficient and outdated protocol. Despite a 4% share of the desktop market, I feel Linux is doing worse than usual in audio.
and unfortunately there seems to be no idea how to satisfy everyone.
On a second leg, problems with Windows 11 and Recall/Copilot AI stuff… I am also not satisfied with ASIO and optimizing the system for audio.

But I would like to leave discussions about systems aside, I know the cons and pros, I am aware of the differences of ecosystems.

 

With a Mac you get CoreAudio, CoreMIDI (this can be made to work in Windows as well though), and Logic Pro. Also you get hassle-free setup with iOS devices and no-setup file sharing with iCloud for mobile Logic/GarageBand & others.

If you want these then it's a great computer, if you don't then Windows has more software and easier access to K'd stuff. For LLMs etc. you might get more mileage out of upgrading your GPU to something with more RAM (or even having several GPUs).

For me would be a tough call, but as I don't yet trust Asahi Linux (the Mac/ARM Linux distro) to do my coding/work business I personally would stick with a Windows/Linux machine, but as you said you don't run Linux so for this comparison is moot.

 

Got a Win 7 DAW rocking my Ensoniq PARIS rig, a Win 10 Studio One v6 iD44 based DAW, a Macbook Pro M1 UAD Apollx Twin X, M3 based iPad, and Lynx Hilo M1 Studio with 64GB Ram S1 v7 DAW with Resolve for video. I built my own PC's for over 20 years and taught about 40 others how to, I also used to tech Mac and PC's for studios in the areas I worked. I say all that so you know I use Mac's and PC's daily and here are my opinions.

First, Mac's and PC's are just tools... nothing more nothing less.

As tools I can build a PC to smoke any Mac but WIndows must be tweaked down and Win 7 was the best at that. Win 10 is ok, but forced updates reset settings, reinstall programs, and randomly uninstall other programs, it's a clusterfuck at times, lol. IMHO Win 11 is a bloated spy OS that crosses every line in terms of privacy and I will NEVER use it for professional work. Every 3 seconds the OS is spying your screen and logging keystrokes which means it can NEVER be online or it's a serious security risk... as an old school computer geek Win 11 is so disrespectful to the end user and these new snapdragon chips with AI cores are the spyware you never know is there learning you and your computer usage... thus zero privacy.

On Mac's any of the M1 and up based ARM computers are more than enough for audio work but start with at least 16GB RAM (32GB for VI's) and don't spend crazy $$$ on to much Mac hard drive space IMHO, just add SSD's as needed. Get as many USB/Thunderbolt ports as possible and know Apple Intelligence cores are in the new M4's and iPhone 16, so they will be learning you too, thus end user privacy is gone on Mac too now. The ARM based Mac's are fantastic for video work, sharing between computers, and just never needing maintenance or OS tweaking, with good resale value and low electricity usage in small size. I would suggest just finding an M1, M2, or M3 at a reduced cost online and get busy making music. One Coreaudio benefit almost never mentioned is you can combine different audio interfaces so your DAW will see them as one device, it's great if you already own several so you don't have to upgrade to a larger I/O device like you do on a PC.

Linux has been growing and will only continue as these companies spy on us with their AI's... my next PC build will be a Linux based DAW FWIW.

 

Last edited: Nov 1, 2024 at 8:10 PM

I agree, at least in my opinion, no platform at the moment is anywhere near perfect at the moment.

Back to the topic:
Nobody can tell if the switch is worth it for you. If the price is not that much money for you I'd definitely try it. It's going to be very fast and I love how clean it looks on the desk.

 

Do what I did, ask ChatGPT - I gave it my PC specifications, the Mac Mini specifications and my Firebat N100. I was primarily interested in energy consumption but also performance.

Energy (8AM to 10PM daily):

Cost Per Year (365 days)

Current PC: £608.61
Mac mini: £75.12
FIREBAT T8 Pro Plus: £14.82

It told me I would get my money back from energy savings alone in 390 days with the Mac Mini.

The saving is so huge that I'm going to set my Firebat up as my main computer for a while and wait for the best Mac Mini deals, maybe Black Friday or after Christmas.

 

Incidentally the GPU in the Mac Mini is pretty much the same performance as my Zotac GeForce GTX 1080 Ti AMP! Extreme Edition which I purchased several years ago for £850.

 

Only with Copilot+ which is only on certain Snapdragon (ARM) computers and even then only if you start using Windows Insider.

Sure it's coming eventually but it's not there yet. The standard Copilot (the glorified Clippy) can be disabled. So let's not panic, alright?

 

here's a benchmark:

Source: www.mactechnews.de/news/article/Erster-Benchmark-M4-Pro-schneller-als-ein-M2-Ultra-im-Mac-Pro-186009.html

 

Last edited: Nov 1, 2024 at 9:41 PM

Important for Logic (or Studio One or Cubase) users:

The standard M4 (10 cores) has 4 performance cores and 6 efficiency cores. These are faster than the previous M3, M2 or M1 cores, but since Logic uses only the performance cores for audio, it may be a thing to consider getting the M4 Pro instead.

The M4 Pro (12 cores) has 8 performance and 4 efficiency cores and so is twice as powerful using Logic.
The M4 Pro (14 cores) has 10 performance and 4 efficiency cores.
The M4 Max (16 cores) has 12 performance and 4 efficiency cores. Available in the new MacBook Pro starting at 4700 Euros.

 

TLDR: Wait until real life M4 reviews roll in.

The Mac Mini is a fantastic machine, and my personal favorite is that you save quite an amount of money on energy consumption over the year. However, at the current time I wouldn't recommend anything else than an M4 Pro with 1TB SSD just from the paper specs, which is fairly expensive already. The lower end M4 models have just 4 performance cores. I think 8 performance cores is a must-have for the M4. It's too early to tell which Pro makes sense, but my guess would be, the cheaper Pro should be perfect. As a bonus, you get Thunderbolt 5 only with the Pro Models.

The SSD of the Apple Silicons is a beast and much faster than external SSDs. If you want true speed, plan in a 1TB SSD to fit all software even in the future. Which is a pretty expensive upgrade on the M4 Pro. Personally, I love responsiveness when I start an app, so it's a must-have for me again.

The pro models come with 24 GB RAM, which should be enough even for big Kontakt libraries. However, nobody knows the difference to 48 GB for sure until tested. My best guess is, you won't need it.

Then there is the networking upgrade. If you plan to use your Kontakt libraries on a PC and the Mac in parallel, you want this upgrade as well. You will get full SSD speed over the network for both, to just use a file server instead of plugging in USB drives and having issues with compatibility and speed for both worlds.

However, Apple crippled the lower end Mac Minis in the past. E.g. only big SSDs ran at full speed. Without real world reviews, it's a gamble to order a Mac Mini M4. And it's hard to tell how much of a difference the models really make. So at this time I would highly recommend to just sit back and relax until we know more.

 

Last edited: Nov 1, 2024 at 9:00 PM

I did the calculation just for fun for my system (but not with ChatGPT: Would take almost 27 years to get my money back from energy savings. Somethings very off with ChatGPT or your energy prices.

 

Those numbers are out of whack. You should try some other tool, maybe https://www.sust-it.net/energy-calculator.php if you're in the UK? Your computer will be idle 80%+ of the time you're using it anyway, so don't plug in your PSU's max W, but something realistic, like 70-130w.

 

I thought the numbers were wrong too so I asked it to clarify, it still claimed it was correct.

Copilot

Let's break down the power consumption of each component and then calculate the total power draw and cost per hour in the UK.

Power Consumption of Each Component
Asus ROG Maximus IX Formula LN77231:

Idle Power: 2 W

Load Power: 88 W1

Intel Core i7 7700K Kaby Lake LN76864:

TDP: 91 W2

Noctua Intel/AMD NH-D15 Silent CPU Cooler:

Power Draw: Approximately 6 W (for the fans)3

Zotac GeForce GTX 1080 Ti AMP! Extreme Edition:

Average Power Draw: 270 W4

3 Hard Drives:

Average Power Draw: 7 W each, totaling 21 W5

2 SSD Drives:

Average Power Draw: 5 W each, totaling 10 W6

Total Power Consumption
Summing up the power consumption of all components:

Motherboard: 88 W

CPU: 91 W

CPU Cooler: 6 W

GPU: 270 W

Hard Drives: 21 W

SSD Drives: 10 W

Total Power Draw: 486 W

Cost Per Hour in the UK
The average cost of electricity in the UK is 24.50p per kWh7

To calculate the cost per hour:

Convert the total power draw to kW: 486 W = 0.486 kW

Multiply by the cost per kWh: 0.486 kW * 24.50p/kWh = 11.91p

Cost Per Hour: Approximately 11.91p

So, running your computer with the specified hardware for general PC use would cost around 11.91p per hour in the UK.

- how much is that per day from 8AM to 10PM?

Copilot

To calculate the cost per day from 8 AM to 10 PM, we need to determine the total number of hours and then multiply by the cost per hour.

Calculation
Total hours from 8 AM to 10 PM: 14 hours

Cost per hour: 11.91p

Total Cost Per Day: 14 hours * 11.91p/hour = 166.74p

So, running your computer with the specified hardware for general PC use from 8 AM to 10 PM would cost approximately 166.74p per day in the UK.