Hello Audiosexers. I´m back again with another ultra specific thread.
I make some kind of ambient/glitch (ish) stuff and when the mixing stage arrives I always end with a headache related to getting a nice coherent place for every element.

One of my common situations is trying to put distance between elements, some of them really close or ‘in your face’ and others reaaally far, but still listeneable/ recognizable. The last ones are the difficult ones. *yes*

When writing, I tend to use small elements, but still various layers, and how the layers interact (and overlap) is crucial for getting the right mood. Also, instruments/textures are recorded with printed fx (mostly delay pedals and modulation) so easily I end with a busy panorama, and as I said before some overlapping is needed to create some tension or get the right vibe. When mixing, getting separation by Equing is usually not enough, and too much cutting just kills the sounds. Panning and widening helps, but is also easy to get some kind of unrealistic isolation or loose some focus. So reverb (and sometimes short delays, because reverb tends to take too much space) is my next weapon here.

A common set up in my mix session is having a few Aux reverbs to feed differently, ussually a ‘glue’/context reverb -not too long-, a deep/dark/long tailed one for automations/transitions, and some hall or plate for bright short elements –mostly percusive- that I want to stand out. The thing is that to not over saturate the space I have to be careful and the balance between dry/wet(Aux) I get is sometimes unrealistic, or the reverb sounds ‘disconected’ from the source. So to push back more some elements I end using some filtering, or blurring with extra inserts and there is where my processing power starts to matter. Various elements to place + a few Auxs + extra inserts = chaos.

So what I need here is any advice related to the subject that could help to improve my set up/workflow. There are really crowded gems out there and I can´t figure out how they managed the placement. Complex and far real drum sounds that don´t get lost, ‘ghost’ guitars, dreamy blurred voices still understandable... you get the point. It´s some kind of sorcery or technique that I´m missing? Thanks.

 

"Complex and far real drum sounds that don´t get lost" I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but I've been reading recently about the '70's drum sounds. They were muddy for today's standard, I mean they weren't cut on the mid frequency 200-400 Hz and were lower in volume, so they were in the back, but still be heard. If the drums were louder, they would eat up too much of the frequency spectrum.

The elements that needs to sound from further distance needs to have more wet reverb and maybe use a High Pass filter on reverb return.

Try not to overdo with delays and use them only where you need them, or it can break your spatial locations.

 

Sorry I'm in a hurry and can't help any further, but you may want to have a look at this free plug-in by Tokio Dawn Labs (I love 'em),
it can be a game changer if used wisely
Tokio Dawn Labs - Proximity
Hope it helps

 

Also interested in this

 

A Lexicon type reverb can narrow or widen the reverb throw, to make it easier for instance to have a deeper sound in a narrow space to help delineate your carved our allotments.

 

Whats good Carl.
I gonna say that I would look at exploring dynamics more. Super compressing a sound with fast release, (with the right compressor that brings pout lower level sounds well). It will give it more presence to the tail end of a sound as well. So when you push it to the backround it won't disappear so much. Also being aware of the dynamic levels (relation between RMS and Peak values) sometimes called CREST value; of each instrument can allow you to make things be more solid and consistent.
For example you have a guitar with a crest value of 11. And you have a synth with a value of 6. If you are trying to pull the guitar to the front you will have a harder time doing it, even if you add reverb to the synth. ou see the higher the crest value the lower the reationship is between soft and loud. So wile the guitar gets louder when you push the fader up. It does not have as much wait as the synth. Sure you can EQ. But it wont do much in terms of dynamics. However if you compress/ limit it and bring down the peaks. Or even us an expander to bring up the lower levels. The idea is to bring it to an equal or lower crest level as the synth.
Using different types of distortion to create color/tonal contrast between sounds I find is an important part of creating space for instruments. Clean next to Dirty. Bright next to Dark. Tube vs Solid State. As a matter of fact, EQ Boosts tends to be the last thing I use to separate instruments in a mix. Mostly cutting to get unwanted frequencies out in most of the mixing process.
Hope this helps or jogs some ideas for you.
ZQ

 

Thanks Copylefter for the link. I'll give it a shot. I hope it as AU and 64 bits so I can run it in Logic X. As for placement and panorama techniques, mostly everything there is to it has been said. Thanks for that.

 

No problem mate!
Its x64, I'm using in LPX as well
If you never heard about their plug-ins, try them all, the feedback comp 2 is amazing,
as well as the new SlickEQ (developed in collaboration with VarietyOfSound).
Everything working great in LPX, way better than many commercial plug-ins
in terms of both stability and quality. This guys are awesome

 

Ok this might be a little long and may seem a bit complex but bear with me. Take things step by step and keep things as simple as possible and you shouldn't end up lost. There's no need for fancy plugins or anything crazy for this, just a few simple things and you can things to sound right.

First, set up 3 return tracks and place a reverb on each of them like this:
1) Short room reverb or percussion reverb (but will be used not just for percussion)
2) Medium Hall reverb or medium space reverb
3) Long plate or hall reverb or just something that emulates a huge space

the medium hall (or whatever you choose) will be used as the main ambient space for your entire song. So you will sending a little bit of this reverb to every instrument in the song and that will be the foundation for the space of the song. It will it sound like everything is one space. The you'll use the other reverbs as you need them. For example you can use the really long plate for effects or dreamy vocals or things like that.

Then we can move on to the elements and instruments themselves. First, focus on the elements that you want to be "in your face" as you put it. These will serve as the foundation to your song and then you can put the more spacey elements around them. So for the main elements:

- EQ and compress those as needed, make sure you low cut things that are not basses so you keep the mix clean, low cut up to 200Hz or until you start to hear the instrument get thin then scale the low cut back a bit. You want to use some compression on these because you don't want them interfering with the more spacey elements which tend to have more movement and range.
- Keep these core instruments narrow in the stereo field, mono if possible, if you want to give them a little more width then you can use short room type reverbs and short ping pong delays (1/8's or 1/16's should be good here)
- If some of these main elements are percussive try panning them and experiment with the amount of panning. Or you can even try autopanners they work great with these types of sounds and can give a lot of interest to the song and more movement.

For the spacey or really far elements


If you've followed the advice and kept the other elements mostly mono or narrow in the stereo field, doing these will be much easier. Here's a few things you can do to make these instruments sound like they're far or dreamy and like they're coming from around the more in your face instruments.

- Use a low pass/high cut filter on them. The more highs you cut out, the more they get sent back in the mix, or to the bottom of the mix if you want to be more accurate. Bandpass filters are really good for this too, so experiment with filtering and you'll get some interesting effects.
- For more advanced filtering use a mid/side EQ and EQ out some of the low end and high end too but only on the Mid channel. This will make the instrument sound wide and give space for the other more prominent instruments.
- Use reverb as part of the sound design. You can put the reverb as an insert and take the dry/wet up pretty high, and then use an EQ after the reverb to shape the sound the way you want.
- Use stereo delays and use a filter or EQ on the delay so that you cut the highs and lows from the delayed sound and that will give you even more width and separation.

For those complex and far drum sounds

A lot of this sound has to do with compression. Try some parallel compression where you mix the uncompressed sound with a copy of that sound where it's completely crushed and distorted with compression. Do some low cutting and EQing to take out some of the mids and harsh frequencies, put some reverb on it and you'll be on your way to getting that sound.

The point is, there is no sorcery or anything you're missing. You just need to think about what you're doing and approach it in a way that is logical and makes sense for the sound you're trying to get. It;s the same old techniques and plugins just used in different ways.

Hope this helps and wasn't too confusing, and if you need any help let me know

 

Didn't you wanted to say "hi-pass- or low cut filter" instead ?
(since high frequencies have shorter wavelength so that if an element comes from far, it will loose some of the high freq of the sound )

 

Huehueteotl, I'm gonna quote Mike Senior from Sound on Sound simply because he can explain better and english is not my 1st language. And it's early morning, I'm just drinking my coffee now.

Code:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul08/articles/reverb1.htm

 

Thank you, of course i agree,

indeed, I said shit, i meant "low pass or hi-cut" to remove hi frequencies like your quote said, like you said in your previous post, i'm dumb.
My reply was completely useless since i didn't understood your 1st one well, i 'm gonna suicide myself, never mind.

 

I confuse High Pass and Low Pass filters most of the time, I am guilty for that. What I really meant to say is that you can cut or lower the High frequencies to make it sound further away.
When you hear music from your neighbors through the walls, or from another room, you hear mostly low frequencies. So you can accentuate the distance by cutting (not completely removing because you can change the phase too much) some of the high frequencies.

 

Well I was not pointing exactly to 70´s drum sounds but they´re close for sure. Some of the sound references I use are from bands who use 'vintage' kits with big and deep sounding set parts. What I like is how they manage to get a clean mix, drums don´t sound wet at all or over processed, just at the back, and excitement doesn´t come from a huge sounding kit or aggressive mix approach, just from the performance/arrangement. I like a lot the sound of Jaga Jazzist for example, and drum parts are REALLY detailed and complex sometimes, and everything can be heard, also in some REALLY intense and busy passages.

 

Thanks Copy, I´ll check them all for sure.

Zquone
Thanks man. What plug do you use for checking Peak/RMS crests? I´m sure this has to do with my concern. I spend A LOT of time managing dynamics so elements don´t get lost if I want them in a lower level, but some already consistent takes (like distorted guitars) sometimes are hard to place. I try to mix in a 'safe' overall level, with enough headroom, but sometimes when I need something 'loud' -like the guitar walls- level changes/contrast doesn´t seems to push out enough the sound.


Fuad
Thanks for the long post. I´m including some tips to my mix notes now.
It´s nice to see that I was in the right path to some configurations, like the reverb usage.
I ended using some bandpass fiters in far vocals sometimes also, to get separation.
I´m stating to mix a song recorded a year ago these days, everything is in nice shape (in terms of sound and performace) but I couldn´t mix it before because it has a lot of elements and was really difficult. I´m more experienced now, but I opened the session yesterday and remembered all the tweaking involved and the result. Now it´s time for a fresh start. *yes*

 

I usually cut 200 Hz and below for my reverb auxiliaries (Lexicon PCM Room/Ambience for drums and rhythm guitar, Hall for everything else), though it might be too much and I'll either use a high-pass EQ capable of an adjustable slope or I'll try turning down the frequency. It's also good to throw in a few different reverbs -- TrueVerb by Waves, Z-Room by DUY come to mind -- that offer a completely different sound you can use on a solo instrument or to stand out from your stock reverbs.