One cannot discern mental health problems as if simply applying natural laws to particular cases, but there is a plethora of criteria that, when considered together, can lead to a quite reliable estimate:
One common criterion is the ability to perceive and understand reality accurately. Individuals who have a distorted or delusional perception of reality may be considered mentally unsound.
The capacity to adapt to changes and cope with obstacles is another aspect. Individuals who struggle significantly with adapting to life's challenges may be evaluated as having mental health issues.
The ability to engage in rational thinking, logical reasoning, and problem-solving is often considered a sign of mental stability.
A person's ability to control their behaviour is a significant factor. Impulsive or erratic behaviour may be indicative of mental health issues.
Effective communication skills, including the ability to express thoughts and feelings coherently, are often associated with mental well-being.
The capacity to perform daily activities and maintain functional independence is considered a positive indicator of mental health.
The ability to manage and regulate emotions is very important. Extreme emotional states or persistent mood disturbances may suggest mental health challenges.
The quality of interpersonal relationships and the ability to navigate social situations are important aspects. Isolation or persistent difficulties in human relationships might be considered in assessments.
People with mental health problems are mostly aware of them, they suffer, and in many cases, seek help from individuals in their environment, as well as from professionals and institutions.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2024

As the OP of this thread, I have no issue with exploring related aspects. This discussion is about whatever additional aspects we encounter during the cause of the discussion, so don't worry!

 

Yes, but there is still a rule about off-topic posts.

 

That's exactly why it's not suitable as the foundation for a particular clinical picture / mental disorder construct. Too much room for interpretation, vague, fantastical and mythological in nature.

I'm actually not sure whether the aspect of "putting down others" and being "unempathetic" is really explicitly part of the original narration, or whether those are not really attributes that were retrospectively associated and interpreted into the story. So, we might have it all twisted here: it's not really "Narcissus", who serves as the prototype for "narcissism", but really an invented disorder of "narcissism", that was proposed by the likes of Freud, that has been constructed by attributing a range of personality traits and behavioural patterns to the mythological figure and term "narcissism". If you know about Freud, you will know that he often invented new disorders and used sophisticated sounding ancient terminology, to give credence to those creations (basically evoking the notion, that he has discovered a long existing human phenomenon, that no one before him has properly understood as a pathological pattern).

Probably repeating myself here at this point: The more abstract, nondescriptive and esoteric a term is, the higher the likelhood that it invites misuse and misinterpretation or ambigious application to phenomena, that differ from the originally intended meaning.

The example you gave of "split personality" being referred to by different, more or less suitable clinical terms by laymen, is a bit of a different issue. This is more of an issue of people not really understanding the specific clinical definitions and intricacies of each disorder, since some of these disorders share a number of symptoms (disorders are defined by their particular combination of symptoms, so that some disorders might share some symptoms, while the overall clinical picture differs from one another). This is more similar to using the terms Flu and Common Cold interchangeably, while medically speaking, each condition has it's unique defining features.

 

Sex-Audio-Sex Professional Audio lovers OR Mad-Audio-Mad Amateur Audio F*****s?

Or the relations between mind and arts. Very inspiring.

Just reading this thread, and eating popcorn, and thinking.

Like Garamondo Furbish said, where is the line?

Do you believe in this DSM-5, that basically sais all people are mad?
We know all are mad, but you have to go case by case, to see the subtle differences.

The Narcisus theme, is a tag. More or less accurate, but a tag of a generalization. If it is wrong used as a mental health problem, is debatable. Is just a word, a mythycal one. Like all words have roots.
This is more if this Tag exist or not. And I agree with Sinus Well that this kind of people exists, as a generalization. Like other simplifications we can do, to understand the world.

All people can be Narcisistic as adjetive, at some point. Like an egocentric, selfish, me first, etc

 

Last edited: Jan 29, 2024

No, there's not as much room for interpretation here as you say, put aside the fantastic aspects of the story. Of course you can interpret everything into everything if you want to. However, there is a clear sequence of Narcissus' actions in this story that lead to clear consequences. The actions and their consequences are a kind of case study of a narcissistic personality. You're just leaving out more than half of the story.

Well, it is actually precisely these actions and attibutes by Narcissus that got the story rolling in the first place. The only thing that diverges greatly is the end of the narrative, but not the beginning.

These terms do not describe the condition precisely enough for a layman to be able to differentiate between these conditions without any knowledge of the symptoms that occur with a condition. For this, it is irrelevant whether the term is based on a clinical description or a mythological narrative. The reason for both is ignorance of the content and a lack of differentiation. The result is misuse. Depression is descriptive and yet is usually used incorrectly.

EDIT:
As I said, I am not arguing against naming terms in such a way that they are descriptive in nature. I just question the extent to which it can serve as a solution to the specific problem you mentioned.

A descriptive term can be useful because the essence of the meaning is present in the word itself. However, if this is linked to dependencies (as is usually the case), this can lead to the essence of the term not being revealed, but remaining abstract. In addition, the understanding of a term of a descriptive nature is language-dependent.
Example: depression.
In german, the term "Depression" is used with german pronunciation. Due to the pronunciation, the english origin of the term is not apparent. Translated it would be something like "Abdämpfung", but this term is not used here.
Summa summarum: For germans who do not speak english and are not familiar with the more precise definition of the term (dependency 1) and list of symptoms (dependency 2), it is simply an abstract foreign word whose meaning they have at best a vague guess of, based on the context in which others use it. It has no descriptive effect.

A term that is not descriptive but merely refers to a description, such as a narrative, contains less information about its meaning in itself, so the reference must be taken into account in order to decode its essence. Especially in the case of a mythological narrative, this can be helpful for a deeper understanding of the meaning of the term, provided that user and recipient are familiar with the mythology and narrative and the essence of the narrative does not change over time. But of course it can also be a hindrance if the narrative is not known in its entirety or if you are completely unfamiliar with the mythology.
Example: Narcissism.
You need a basic understanding of mythology (Dependency 1) and must be familiar with the narrative (Dependency 2). Narratives are translated into many languages, therefore, language barriers are less of a problem here than with descriptive terms, but you need some basic analytical skills to isolate the essence of the narration and separate it from irrelevant information.

A simple statement like ‘Terms in medicine and science must be descriptive in nature because narrative terms are not meaningful’ is not sufficient. Clarity and precision in language are particularly important in a professional environment for smooth communication. I understand your reasoning. But you hopefully see that this alone is not a really solid argument upon closer examination? Especially not when no alternative is presented that can be measured against the common term. Language is about communication, and each type of term has its own advantages and disadvantages.


However, I think the analysis of this problem and the associated questions are really more of an epistemological nature than a psychological one.

 

Last edited: Jan 30, 2024

Is Psychotherapy a Hoax?

Psychotherapy is not a hoax. It is a well-established and evidence-based form of treatment for various mental health conditions and emotional difficulties. The effectiveness of psychotherapy has been supported by numerous scientific studies and clinical trials, and it is endorsed by mental health professionals and organizations worldwide.

Understanding Psychotherapy

Psychotherapy, also known as talk therapy or counseling, involves the collaboration between a trained therapist and an individual or group to address psychological issues, emotional challenges, and behavioral patterns. The primary goal of psychotherapy is to improve an individual’s mental well-being, alleviate distress, and promote personal growth.

Scientific Evidence Supporting Psychotherapy

Numerous research studies have consistently demonstrated the effectiveness of psychotherapy in treating a wide range of mental health conditions, including depression, anxiety disorders, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), and more. Meta-analyses and systematic reviews have shown that psychotherapy can produce significant and long-lasting improvements in symptoms and overall functioning.

Types of Psychotherapy

There are various approaches to psychotherapy, each with its own theoretical foundations and techniques. Some common types of psychotherapy include cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT), psychodynamic therapy, humanistic therapy, interpersonal therapy, and dialectical behavior therapy (DBT). These approaches are tailored to address specific issues and are often used in combination with other treatment modalities.

Professional Endorsement

Leading mental health organizations, such as the American Psychological Association (APA), the American Psychiatric Association (APA), the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), and the World Health Organization (WHO), recognize the value of psychotherapy as an essential component of mental health care. These organizations provide guidelines and recommendations for the use of psychotherapy in clinical practice.

Debunking Misconceptions

Despite its proven efficacy, psychotherapy has sometimes been subject to misconceptions or stigmatization. It is important to distinguish between evidence-based psychotherapeutic interventions and unproven or pseudoscientific practices. Additionally, it is crucial to acknowledge that individual experiences with psychotherapy may vary, but overall, it remains a legitimate and valuable form of treatment.

In conclusion, psychotherapy is not a hoax; it is a legitimate and effective form of treatment for mental health conditions. Supported by scientific evidence and endorsed by professional organizations, psychotherapy plays a crucial role in promoting psychological well-being and addressing emotional challenges.

 

ChatGPT or just copy and paste from some obscure website?

 

Nope!

 

Ok now folks! i heard enough of this mental shit! (even my own in my life!) for a lifetime!! chin up! & keep making music! Move on!

 

@Hazen I've revised my previous post and explained in more detail why I don't think your argument is solid.

 

I apreciate your advise of keeping with music (or censorship of shut up) , but not talking is not the solution. This is an excellent comunity to talk music, and MISC / LOUNGE. Respect, but you are free to not read this thread anymore.
-----


There are hundreds of examples of words used like diagnostics in the old times, that came from common words. And now are in missuse, because were degrading, and not aging well.

Lunatic, origin of the word: of the moon. A person who is affected by lunacy; a mentally deranged person.
Oligophrenic, from greek "small mind" for people. Less than normal mental development.
Female hysteria, from the Greek word for uterus, hystera. A common medical diagnosis for women
...

So may be our friend @Hazen is right and Narcissistic as personality disorder should be avoided between profesionals (and people in general). But the word will be staying bt us for a long time.

 

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I'll leave my 2 cents contribution here:

46% of people who gave their opinion either think that psychotherapy is a hoax, are unsure or simply don't care. Do you understand why the world is so chaotic? My brother, who is a radiologist, knows that medical councils have been running an undeclared campaign for decades in favor of not disseminating the importance of psychology, either because it cannot accommodate itself to scientific determinism (each mind is unique and has its own non-transferable issues, a fact that led psychology to a search for different methods of dealing with things as complex as the symbolic, the imaginary and the real) or because the medical profession prefer to prescribe allopathies that offer quick relief and that are disseminated by large medical laboratories that, by the way, pay them very well. The result of this is the rise of charlatans, fifth-rate coaches, far-right leaders who promise solutions based on aggression, stupidity, among other miseries. Humanity is in a tremendous limbo, either because it is not encouraged to deal with its own psyche, or because it is afraid of digging into old, hidden wounds. And we continue, in fits and starts, being governed by disorders, traumas, syndromes, stressors and mental triggers that lead us to endless conflicts, thinking that living reacting to unconscious disorders and with poor mental health is normal. The laboratories and their offspring, the allopathies, really thank you guys.

 

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First the facts:
Hysteria is a diagnosis that is several thousand years old and has only been diagnosed in women. Hysteria means uterus. Hysteria is a mental disorder. Over time, more and more symptoms were attributed to hysteria until the clinical picture became completely undifferentiated. We do not know which symptoms originally described hysteria.

My unverifiable thesis:
Hysteria was originally a temporary change in a woman's mental state that occurred during menstruation.

If this thesis is correct, it is kind of a descriptive term, taking into account ancient medical knowledge and language.

A descriptive term. Nowadays it is replaced by a descriptive term with the same meaning, because the old term has negative connotations. In a few years, the current term will probably be replaced again by a descriptive term with the same meaning, because the old one has negative connotations. A few years later, the term will be replaced by....

 

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Well, I'm one of those who thinks that psychothetapy (as practised) is (largely) a hoax IF you measure it against the claim of it being an evidence-based, proven treatment, that just works.

And if it doesn't work, typically its claimed,that this is due to the client / patient being noncooperative or not putting in enough effort. Isn't that a great business model: you as the paid service provider can always blame your client, if you fail to achieve what you have promised to deliver?

That doesn't mean that I despise dealing with mental problems and human behaviour. Psychology is a very interesting subject. We just need to stop pretending that it's an exact science and we need to stop putting psychologists on a pedestral as absolute and infallable authorities. The field filled with many players that would perfectly suit @Sinus Well understanding of narcissism, needs to humble itself and acknowledge its limitations!

To me Psychology can be filed under the humanities, not within science, since its largely based on subjective interpretations and models, not an intricate understanding of the mechanisms facilitating mental processes and conditions.

 

I think you are arguing in my side here and didn't really deal with any point I made elsewhere.

 

Ok, we are trending topic. This is one of the most important newspaper on Spain today. The article says "How to identify and neutralize a narcisist" LOL Like a terrorist
https://elpais.com/estilo-de-vida/2024-01-30/como-identificar-y-neutralizar-a-un-narcisista.html#

And other very interesting about, "Are we really surrounded by narcissists? How a Clinical Term Has Been Perverted in the Age of Networking" @Hazen
https://elpais.com/salud-y-bienesta...n-termino-clinico-en-la-era-de-las-redes.html

 

Last edited: Jan 30, 2024

Please tell me an evidence-based, proven treatment that just works. Always. Without exception. Medical history -> diagnosis -> therapy. A lot of potential pitfalls and subjectivity. On both sides. For the therapist and the patient.

"Doctor, I'm not feeling well. My heart pounds like crazy at the slightest exertion and I'm constantly putting on weight."
"What do you do for a living?"
"I'm a cab driver."
"What about your diet? What does it look like?"
"French fries, steak, cola, gummy bears."
"Do you exercise?"
"No."
"Change your diet. More green vegetables. Do endurance sports. I recommend jogging or swimming. Come back in three months and we'll see if anything has changed."

3 months later:
"Doctor, I'm still not feeling well. My heart pounds like crazy at the slightest exertion and I keep putting on weight."
"Have you adjusted your diet as I advised you?"
"No."
"Have you done more sport?"
"No."
"Then what do you expect me to do?"
"I expect you to make me healthy and not reproach me about my lifestyle, you quack!"

Psychotherapy is help for self-help. If the patient does not want to help himself, but expects the therapist to do it for him, or even refuses to realize that he needs help at all, then it is the therapist's fault? I would say that in most cases it is a kind of collaboration where both sides have to pull together.

We must stop putting anyone on a pedestal as an absolute and infallible authority. No one is absolute and infallible.

I would say you can find assholes everywhere. Narcissists too.

This was practiced for a very long time. For some years now, people have increasingly taken a different view and are bringing "both sides" together, resulting in completely new insights for both sides.

In any part of research, models and findings are always subject to a certain degree of subjective judgment. There is no such thing as pure objectivity as some sciences claim for themselves. It is and always will be an approximation with an uncertainty factor of subjectivity.

Is psychology more prone to subjectivity than physics? Hell yes! Unlike physics, it deals with subjects and not objects. But physics is not purely objective either.

 

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I believe in the power of comunication, just talk fixes thinks, because let's you clean.
And also in the power of silence, just stop talking also lets you to clean sometimes.

The tools that a shrink can give you are well, like the theory. But who puts in practice is you, do you need a personal trainer? Is not a personal trainer a hoax? No, Is a profesional who makes accountability of your body (and mind too)
Later the placebo effect of all we do.
But yes, who finally "fix" it is one with himself. Pushing the limits, and improving ourselves. The true origin of madness. LOL

So I agree, maybe the problem is not psycotherapy is or not a hoax. Who knows!
Instead there is a lot of assholes. Just that!

 

Last edited: Jan 30, 2024

Thanks to all contributors, it was a great discussion with a lot of insights! If anyone wants to add something, please feel free!