Well, this discussion is about psychotherapy, not psychiatry. At least in my jurisdiction those are distinct professions. I have my own criticism of psychiatry, but that's not the topic of this thread.

You probably misunderstood the money issue. I did not say that it's hard to afford therapy where I live. That's NOT the issue. In fact, in my country we have mandatory public health insurance, so that essentially everyone is covered. You still pay for health insurance though, since the monthly fee will be deducted from your salary. But I guess it's not as obvious of a payment for some? And since the therapists charge hefty hourly fees (as I said: comparable to that of attorneys) with an ever increasing demand for their services, the costs for the public health insurance is rising every year, which in turn will lead to an increase in the monthly fee / deduction from your salary, which leaves you with less money in the pocket ultimately!

But my issue regarding the money is this: the psychotherapeutic profession in essence charges for offering empathy and human interaction, something that lonely and mentally vulnerable people are longing for. To me that seems unethical: you base your business model around financially exploiting the needs of emotionally susceptible and vulnerable people, by pretending to offer them what they are longing for the most (human interaction, empathy etc). I cannot think of anything more depraved and perfidious!

That to me is ethically totally different from providing and charging for other services or even medical care, since this touches the emotional and intimate needs and sphere, as opposed to just providing a service or technical skill. A business model that evolves around the idea, that lonely and emotionally vulnerable people could be turned into paying customers, has to be questioned.

 

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CBT certainly makes an effort to present itself as the more "evidence-based" and research-driven approach, but it's really not too different in terms of it's innate quackery and lack of evidence based from the Freudian / Fraudian nonsense earlier proposed. In fact, some Freudian mythological concepts are still being used by CBT-practicioners, such as the whole concept of "Narcissism", which while being very popular, has absolutely no scientific validity, but rather can be traced back to the mythological realm (originally to the ancient greek mythology, than re-appropriated by esoteric writers and psychoanalysis in the 19th century).

CBT is efficacious for the treatment of specific phobia and other clearly definable and isolatable minor issues with a simple cause and effect relationship, since it uses trivial behavioral modification techniques such as desensitization and confrontation, that have been known long before CBT existed. CBT is inefficacious for anything that goes beyond such a limited scope, especially when it aims to modify the innate personality structure of a person.

 

Sometimes you don't need psychotherapy, you just need a friend.
A friend is a person who knows you very well and still likes you.

 

No, but it takes a lot of self initiative. You can't expect your therapist to fix things for you. They can only help you fix yourself.

 

First of all, we should discern psychotherapy from psychiatry. Historically, psychiatry has been associated with practices like institutionalization and involuntary treatment, raising concerns about patient autonomy and the potential for abuse. Critics argue that the 'medical model' may reinforce these power imbalances. Psychiatry is a social service, not medicine.
Most psychiatric cases (psychoses) are connected with brain damage, malfunction, or underdevelopment, and therefore are considered incurable. Additionally, many mental health issues are heavily influenced by social and environmental factors such as poverty, trauma, or discrimination. This raises questions about whether focusing solely on medical interventions adequately addresses the root causes of mental distress.
In psychiatry dominates so-called palliative or symptomatic care, which deals with symptoms only, not curing the causes. This often leads to an over-reliance on medication, pharmacotherapy, patient isolation, restraining, or even electroshocks (lobotomy has even been used).
And there's life endangering insulin shock therapy, form of psychiatric treatment in which patients are given increasingly large doses of insulin in order to induce hypoglycemia (low blood glucose) and coma.
While some psychiatric medications and therapies demonstrably improve symptoms, even this form of effectiveness can vary widely between individuals and conditions.
Unlike most medical conditions, many mental disorders lack clear biological markers or causes. Diagnosis often relies on subjective criteria and behavioral symptoms, leading to concerns about subjectivity and misdiagnosis. Labeling certain behaviors or experiences as "mental disorders" medicalizes normal human experiences and can lead to stigmatization and a lifelong over-reliance on medication. This often results in the pacification of people by drugging them and removing them from society.

In conclusion, psychiatry is a hoax, pretending to be a branch of medicine while primarily serving as a "socially acceptable" alternative to prison detention (in some aspects, even more cruel) of non-criminal people and/or forcefully disabling those people with drugs.

 

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What do you think?
That's an interesting debate, can agree in some form. But the question is formulated in a provocative way. So the answer is no. I understand the criticism on modern medicine, mental health is a real issue, and has been around from the begining of human race. Psychotherapy is a reltive new term in human history, so still on aerly stages.
Some arguments:

1. psychotherapy evolves around the premise, that the "psyche" is an independent entity and that our psychological constitution is solely (or mainly) determined by our attitudes and thoughts - which is in essence a false circular reasoning imho, where you claim that A is determined by A (psyche by psyche). Interesting ideas, and an eternal debate. What was before the egg or the chicken? The ADN vs the ambient. If we are debating about health, it is multidisciplinar and goes in both ways, from the individual to the group and viceversa. Psyche by psyche is the unique way we can be autonomous and free. On other ideas like psyche by genes, or psyche by group, psyche by destiny, ... there is less and less options to work with. ANd we can just cross our arms, and feel like selfpity of our victim aproach for life. And pray. IMO; So best work to be done internally is tollerance and acceptance, self respect, with tools to work on the individual. Other aproaches like family or comunity are good workarounds if possible. You can mitigate chemical imbalances, but you never know, there are no psiche cientific analysis in blood or whatever, so this invalidates all psycho industries? It makes all is a hoax? No, we are on the road, we can't abandon the progress made. Still on early stages, hope people on the future finds better and better ways to deal with the suffer and pain, and also be more happy and productive. But would you abandon Aeronautical industries, before airplanes become made? We are in a trend, but is a slow trend. What else can you trust, to deal with psycho health?
2. the psychotherapeutic profession is often portrayed as one of altruistic, selfless healers, deeply invested in the wellbeing of their clients - at the same time we have to acknowledge. Like any profession, ethics are ethics, and hoax can happen in all markets.
3. their business model only thrives, as long as a critical mass of people (= potential clients / customers) is convinced, that without psychotherapy they are not able to function properly - Like all, you can also teach people to grow their own veggies, but there are no magic fix for all, some have the resources and some not and has to externalize their wellbeing.
4. psychological theories are mostly based on subjective assertions and models proposed by individuals from within the field, not on an intricate understanding of the exact mechanisms and processes that direct and determine mental functioning - If you suggest is an hoax or pseudo science, what do you suggest as alternative? Religion, spiritual healing, philosophy... There is a part of humans as individuals that are obscure, like the brain, so this part of the science has to be less scientific, and more centered on the individual. In the old times, they replicate the conditions to their experiments on humans, now we use animals. What do you prefer? There are no studies to replicate? There will be some day. And will be more scary than now, imagine the truth wrote on stone. Having all the backend code of life and mind. That's very dangerous information on bad hands. Hope it never came this day, and we can still think we can fix our problems, on whatever way we find. Like making music for example

These are just a few of my reasons, why I think that psychotherapy is a potential hoax! Feel welcome to agree or disagree and join the debate[/QUOTE]

 

Well, I think that we need to acknowledge more the role that the brain as our central processing unit plays, instead of trying to pathologise people based on subjective, made-up models and theories for natural deviations from a proposed ideal. And that each one of us comes with their individual hardware (as someone said earlier) and we should be able to accept that, instead of labelling certain hardwares defective, just because it might not be as performant as other hardware.

Let me make another, slightly provocative statement: CBT primarily works for people, who don't have a severe problem, because if CBT is sufficient to cause a positive change, you most likely didn't have a severe problem to begin with. That means it works for people, who have all their essential faculties intact to function and direct their life in the direction they wish for. The more severe a mental problem is, the higher the likelihood that it's caused by underlying biological factors and therefore the higher the chance that CBT will not work.

I believe that neuroscience and cognitive science will further our understanding of the physical brain and how it relates to our emotions, behavioural patterns and thoughts. If psychology wants to have a future and wants to avoid becoming obsolete, it has to incorporate those findings.

Currently psychotherapy is the approach we have and therefore useful, because it's better than nothing. Many of the treatments that psychotherapy offers can be helpful to some clients and at the very least it can be an opportunity to reflect on your life, your current situation and your wishes for the future.

 

Totally Agree, we are all different, and we are all valid as we are. Hope all this evolves, to a much more human aproach. I don't believe on pathologise all, that's absurd 50% of USA's population are mental diagnosed, that's absurd. You opened a big debate on audio forum, that also talks about medicine in general, costs of treatments, and validity of science. So Congrats!

 

Bit of a redundant question personally

The idea that our emotional state is purely a mechanical product of our physical brains is a pretty outdated premise I gather.

Serious studies into consciousness (which is barely a science because we just don't have a solid scientific framework) are increasingly having to contemplate very esoteric solutions (Panpsychism, Bernard Carr's theories etc) just to explain how and why consciousness exists. Some respected scientists are even exploring solutions that establish consciousness at a quantum level, with the brain being a primate receiver/interface.

If we take these models seriously, the self and thoughts (conscious and subconscious) do drive everything, with brain chemistry being an additional factor, but not the main behavioural influencer. Neurologic disorders would be the most drastic physical influence, and would indicate a failing interface, but not necessarily a reduction of consciousness.

These more esoteric models do indicate therapy, philosophy and imagination have much more value and impact. But also that absolute scientific verification is impossible, which means your question is unanswerable, and maybe irrelevant.

Even if you don't accept such models, you are still fundamentally talking about a process we know almost nothing about. That's a scientific fact. We currently cannot explain consciousness physically and scientifically. We can only speculate at best. This whole thread can only be speculation.

Personally these new models of consciousness make a lot of sense to me and my experiences (psychedelic experiences included). I can personally vouch for CBT having a massive positive impact on my mental state. It definitely helped me fix my mental breakdown symptoms, these included the physical (anxiety and nervousness) and the mental (obsessive thoughts, anguish, trauma).

I am completely fine now and the actions i now do to maintain normality are all about having a healthy relationship with my thoughts. In the end, the whole breakdown episode was incredibly illuminating and informative.

But I also agree therapy and self-help is a minefield of nebulous concepts, cults, conmen and general confusion.

 

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Edit : Pussy helps too.

Take care

 

Sir, with all due respect

Yes Sir, I agree with you on this viewpoint.

It reflects upon me that most of the comments here revolve around Psychotherapy as practiced in US and Europe, where completely different practices exists and which sometimes follows a completely different guidelines in certain streams of medicine officially even different from WHO (Eg:- Immunizations etc & also Epidemiology being one where perhaps most medical students have never even seen many communicable disease let alone treat one) and perhaps most of the members can rightfully argue some of their viewpoint.

I can understand the pain & plight of less privileged people in US and perhaps Europe being subjected to such situations and practices.

But for majority population (I being one) of the world like Asia ( China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia etc and Africa this form of Practice as exist in US and continental Europe is almost non-existent. Here Psychotherapy assumes a whole different form and different medical guidelines are followed. It takes the form of counselling generally provided mainly by Psychiatrists,Doctors sometimes along with Psychologist/Trained providers in addition to medicines along the course of treatment, almost most of the time free of charge in Govt supported hospitals and even in private sector. As an Independent Practice I don't even know one if present in my province with a population of more than half of U.K.

So I guess for us it's a whole different context from my friends in US and Europe.
Wish all my friends and everyone in US, Canada and Europe may have universal access to health care irrespective of anything.

 

And your point is highly debatable given the fact that brain plasticity has been proven to be a thing over and over again. That's one of the reasons there's a differentiation between an emotional disorder and a neurological condition to begin with, the mind isn't set in stone and not every condition nor every person is the same. This type of misinformed deterministic believe can really harm people, and they should be aware that they're not always hopeless, how can someone heal and recover if they have this kind of misinformed belief? Again, this is a recent field of study (about 150 years now) but this isn't a child's play or a big pharma baseless invention but it's a rather deep research topic.

 

Instead of discussing whether there is a self-standing psyche or not, we should clearly discern between mental and physical illness.
Mental illness is primarily rooted in the brain and its functions, affecting thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. Symptoms can include changes in mood, thinking patterns, behavior, and perception. These can manifest as depression, anxiety, hallucinations, delusions, or altered sleep patterns, etc. Mental illness diagnosis often relies on self-reported symptoms, interviews with the individual and sometimes close family or friends, and mental health assessments. Besides psychotherapy, mental illness can involve medication, lifestyle changes, and support groups.
Research shows that psychotherapy is relatively effective in reducing symptoms of various mental health conditions. Beyond symptom reduction, psychotherapy can help individuals improve their overall functioning in work, relationships, and other areas of life. It can equip them with coping mechanisms, communication skills, and emotional regulation strategies that translate into real-world improvement.
We must bear in mind that psychotherapy is restricted to neuroses, which are introduced through negative life experiences. Personality disorders are hardwired and therefore incurable. So, unlike psychiatry psychotherapy is not a hoax if applied adequately to corresponding cases, but it is not very efficient in removing the causes of neuroses.

 

As a producer/engineer I wind up being an unlicensed therapist for at least 1/3 of the people that come through the door.

 

Anyone tellme or show me an isolated virus direct from the body.
There is none.

 

I will explain Psychotherapy in a nutshell
Push more anti depressants and let the subject return.

 

Human possess what I call "the Reprogramable Interface" -

we can be made to act arbitrarily. An ant will seek sugar, and you cannot reason with him to stop seeking sugar.
Humans can pass a law against sugar, and most will at least publicly not attempt to get sugar.
what changed? A few words by a body that has been deemed an "authority"

we have just been reprogrammed. no pyschotherapy, no hypnosis, no religion, no magic. just words from the heirarchy.

pyschology and pyschotherapy attempt to manipulate the mind through talk and often drugs, the drugs have much more impact than the talk.

LSD and talk therapy can stop bad behaviour in a few days. Look at the research on LSD and prison recidivism

https://www.psypost.org/2014/01/tak...s-psychedelic-use-to-reduced-recidivism-22063

yes, the world is confusing, yes many if not most people lose their way without a structure to guide them, be it politics, religion, sports, etc. - many who follow these structured paths, also lose their way and commit crimes, act out destructively, harm others, etc. - there are no guarantees, but if you allow anarchy to rule your thoughts the outcome is foregone.

You will learn more by examining your own soul and your own desires, but most people are blocked by the shields they have erected to prevent more hurt from the outside world and from themselves. Thus enters the therapist, they are the modern Shaminist of ancient society.

If you examine modern society all the ancient archetypes are still present, just renamed or reinvisioned, The warrior, the priest, etc. The Shaman was the original healer. In order to heal, change must occur, the shaman brings change, his skill is understanding what sort of change and how much needs to be brought to bear to invoke change within the individual.

Usually a ceremony of some sort occurs, sometimes very small and intimate involving only the patient and Shaman, other times involve larger bands of individuals up to the entire tribe.

Humanity can be described by an acronym
MARS

Metaphor
Analogy
Ritual
Symbolism

these four elements are faces of the same thing expressed in different methods, they are the underpinning of our world and our way of thinking. These can be used to manipulate us and to heal us and destroy us.
Think about what these devices are and how they influence you and how you learn about what we perceive as the world both small and large.

 

Who created your name and signed your birth certificate?

 

you're assuming I have a name and birth certificate, which are only artifacts of the traveler within this realm.