Pretty bizarre, I was about to post similar comments but you beat me to it.

I've been in this game a long time, and most of what we do is based on turning shit into gold. Any fool with half a brain can take something that's already great and create something meaningful from it. A truly competent producer/engineer can take something terrible and make it good enough that the talent and/or label walk away happy. If you're incapable of accomplishing that, you shouldn't be advertising your services or asking for payments - but then I think that is a whole other problem... The Dunning Kruger effect is perhaps something for another thread.

 

Isn't that against the rules?

In production there is, in music I don't know, that's a question for philosophers, IMHO.
But I agree with the rest of that and the following paragraph.

. I know that exceeding expectations is what differentiates great from good. But deliberately deceeding them is a mistake, again IMHO. And since he expected to deceed them...

 

Yes but I do not abide by any man-made rules even if he is a Saint. I am a modarfoking Py-Rat

I agree with your observation. Yet, I believe that unrealistic expectations do not exist in an artist's head at a rational level. If they do, only those outside the artist's head can see it. That is the very essence of what drives artists to create their art. I know that you know where am going with this. A songwriter believes everyone WILL like his/her song. A painter believes that everyone will love his art. A chef believes everyone will love his offerings. If those unrealistic expectations were to live in those artists' heads, they will stop creating. Is it not our job as producers and engineers strike that fine balance between the unrealistic and conceivable? And to do that without obfuscating the artists' vision regardless of how unrealistic it may be or seem?

To deliberately deceed expectations is wrong but here the OP gave up. Decided to play it safe. Indeed, the OP ignored that the only way in which you can fail is when you stop trying. Again, in my opinion the OP let the artist down. We can't overlook the fact that the artist approached the OP because the artist believed that the OP would be able to fulfill the artist's expectations. There were options available to the OP that made more business sense than playing it safe. To be clear, I do not criticize the OP for being honest. I just do not agree with quitting without trying or availing himself of the options that existed. Again a bad business decision.
The client is paying $2000 for one track. Multiply it by 5. That is $10k. Multiply it by 10, and we are talking about $20k. Not a bad paycheck. However, all gone in a matter of minutes without the OP giving it a shot.

Edit: $2000 for 4 tracks. $5000 for 10 tracks. Not as good as $20k but enough to hire a different call girl everyday of the month.

 

Last edited: Aug 25, 2023

It was not 2000$ for one track but his 4 track project and the first track sounded like a 15 years old kid rapping after his first heart break.The first track was what he wanted me to mix and master. Not produce. As pointed earlier in the thread, I asked him to go back and work on it but he insisted that it has been done before.

I'm ok with some ''push ourselves to go the extra mile'' but given that I heard the material, thinking that this could have become something remotely decent is laughable at best. But as someone posted earlier, that's for another thread.

 

I have dealt with this issue in every aspect of providing a service to people . . . it's best to deal with this before starting a project. Listen to their demo, stems, etc. and then tell them what you can and cannot do.

 

Totally agree with that way of working and that's what happened in my case.

 

Again, instead of sending him back (and turning him away) you should have sat down with him and explain that what he expected needed extra work not included in the mixing/mastering fee. A golden opportunity to make some extra cash.

I understand how you felt about it but if you were hired to mix, you should have done it to the best of your abilities with whatever the artist gave you, even if you had to outsource the vocals. At the end, the only thing that matters is that if the artist is happy, regardless of how you felt about the final product, you would have fulfilled your contractual obligations and retain a client. If every time engineers receive less than perfect tracks they were turn it down, engineers will be jobless. Indeed, you would be in the same situation times 100 if you were an in-house engineer or producer. I did it with my partner for a couple of years for a major label back in the 80s. We had so much shit coming our way that many times we just wanted to quit. However, our job description was to work with whatever the A & R gave us. Guess what? That is exactly what we did...and got paid very well for it. The same thing when we were operating the studios. We opened them, and invested a good chunk of money to make money. Turning away clients was forbidden. We were in it to make money. If something was bad, we make sure that "our name" or "company name" never appeared on the credits. Good thing about this business is that you can use any artistic name you choose. Therefore, your good reputation is not tainted by "bad products." Next time, take the money.

 

@The Pirate I think your advice is very commendable. Now keep in mind that It's not my primary gig anymore so I still do feel I made the correct decision by asking him to go back to the bench or find someone else ( don't get me wrong here, I'm a very diplomat person in business so no ones feeling got hurt) but I think that with better vocal production knowledge, I could have got him to do something decent. Now, given that the contract was 500$ a pop, a decent vocal producer for his level would have cost me 300$ at least and that would have been entry level. I'm not mixing track in my domain and genre at 200$ anymore.
For him to buy a premium package with someone that can bring his material to a release ready level is not for me to take him by the hand. In the end, yes you are right, doing just that would have most likely get me a new and recurring customer but that was also a friend of a friend and they all know I stand by my word. I know for a fact that this is why I can work with all of them, because they know I deliver when I say I will. I know that for a fact because they are telling me.... word for word. If I start playing games, I'll lose what I built there and that I enjoy doing. As I said, I want to learn the trick of the trade in regards to great vocal production but for that, I'll need to be physically there and have the actual knowledge to do something decent. The past few days have been enlightening for me as I found a few interesting information that I will need to dig in and try. So in the end, I believe it was a fruitful experience as I kept my integrity and didn't send him in someone elses hand. We did great numbers so far with that bunch of guys and I think we'll do better in the upcoming months. I'm about to leave to go meet them again for the whole winter so we'll have plenty of time to fawk around and see what work.

 

Speaking of the devil. Look what happened with what I said I wouldn't mix. He just released it today.

Sometime you're better off not putting out any music when you go that low. For some reason, he was able to make it sound worst then it was originally.

 

Bro, as long as you have no regrets about a decision you can live with happily ever after, you are good. I respect that.

You can lead a horse to the water but can't make it drink.

 

Last edited: Aug 26, 2023

I hope one of his friend will sit his ass down and explain him the difference between what he did before and what he just released.

I'm jaw dropped.

You're 100% right. I'm now convinced this thing will have ended up in a nightmare. It makes absolutely no sense.

Maybe it's a joke !?

 

@The Pirate I agree with you 100%. In fact, there's one other thing about meeting expectations. If I'm unable or unwilling to do a job, I always refer them to someone else who can. It usually happens when I'm with a busy schedule or when the size of my studio can't fit a project, or when it's a genre I can't possibly deliver upon. This is a small world and I believe the best way to build a reputation is to offer a solution even if it's not YOUR solution. It's happened more than once that those potential clients have come back to me for consultation for a fee, a mix project or just to check back on me.

 

I think I have come up with a a different way I might handle something like this. If I am not busy, and attempting this persons project which seems on the trajectory being discussed; the literally worst thing that can happen is that you end up doing the project for free, or virtually free.
People take on free mixing gigs all the time, to learn, practice with someone else's material, and many other reasons. The worst case scenario is you agree to do the work, and the song sucks as bad as you thought it might. You work on it and don't get your full fee. If you are busy with other work, or they have an actual deadline to meet, it could be more worth your concerns.

It doesn't sound like you were actively chasing down work from this artist/band, etc; and you are on the fence about it. Normally, if you are actively pursuing work; you let them listen to demos, like an artist goes around with their portfolio. It's natural to just let them hear the best sounding work you have ever done, when you are trying to get a gig. But the result is that you are building up their hopes to match some other artist's work, when we all know there is only so much a studio/producer can really do short of replaying instruments and redoing all the vocals.
Does anyone try to hold back best work from these types of client requests, and instead just use some demos that are more representative of your average work? Or even your own music. You would be taming any unrealistic client expectations back down to reality.

 

At a minimum, needs slicing, a shit ton of autotune, and bussing. I like to reference a song like this as a reference for simple vox FX contrast between V, Pre-CH, CH. He ain't got enough mini-hooks material to arrange with though. Maybe could start here with his crappy performance.

 

@bluerover Thats light years ahead of his project. I gave up anyways so nothing I can do about it anymore. Not that I want to neither.

What I love about our conversation is that there's some people with more experience than me that are still willing to go the extra mile with those type of projects. That, to me, is pure love for music making and I'm extremely impressed by that sort of internal energy as I don't have that drive anymore.

To me, that commitment drain me and I go back emotionally to where I was when I was in my early 20's and overbooked until I got into a long depression. Not going to happen ever again unless I'm extremely involved by a persona or a very specifically defined project.

 

In my opinion, this is the right setting. And a sign of mental maturity
What is the use of earning a lot of money and being ripe for the loony bin. For me, it came to that in my early 30s.

Yesterday my 27 year old daughter was admitted to the hospital with a suspected stroke. I have warned her in advance for months that she is overdoing it as far as stress is concerned. And to please everyone who demanded something from her.To no avail, of course. (btw I'm sure that this is not a stroke, but a psychosomatic disorder due to burnout syndrome.)

So, either way @Martel, your self set rules are right for you. To do good business and still be able to live reasonably contentedly.
Have a nice and relaxed Weekend

 

Last edited: Aug 26, 2023

Thank you for the kind words. I really appreciate it.

If I may, and I know that I don't know the circumstances, but I had something similar (what appeared to be a stroke and ended up at the emergency room) happening to me in 2019. That was 3 years after my son was (to me) kidnapped by his mother (not letting me see him for 5 years). That, mixed with a job using me and disrespecting me on a daily basis while I was giving my whole compassion and understanding to a family company that saw my over commitment as ass licking brought me to a point where, one morning, when entering to open the office, I lost sight and couldn't find my breath, fell on the floor and the left part of my body wouldn't be controllable anymore.

I'm trying to make a long story short here but what I found later on is that if you hide your own needs and desire in a corner for too long, your brain will come back hitting you with an axe and will stop you from killing yourself.

In my case, I had to go back to the basic, to the roots of my own needs and existence in my own life perspective. I first started thinking about what is that I love doing alone, not taking into account the society or what's expected of me. I found my own young self at 13 to 16 years old when I started having interest of my own without the need for competition or being proficient. I remembered some specific thing that I use to love (and still love a lot) but don't do anymore and focused on doing it in total peace of mind. To be able to do it in total peace of mind, I first needed to come back to a peaceful me (inside). I tried CBD in oil drop under my tongue (THC trigger anxiety attack for me) and that worked as a quick patch (very difficult to dose and a lot of trial and error) then got into meditation and breath control. That helped a lot and understood a lot about my ''hot temper'' and very over the board implication and dedication which led me to have a huge appreciation for the nonchalant stereotypical temper (this is not racist but my personal perception shared sincerely and transparently. I'm not trying to insult anyone and sorry if I did) of people from south america and africa and to this day, to whom I look up to for better day to day living and personal well being.

Those are tools that worked for me.

You know your daughter probably better then she does about herself. Maybe you can try and give her suggestion to dig in and find her own peace place in her head and heart.

I really hope she feel better soon. This is as close as inferno we can get in life. I hope she has enough space in life to find all of that by herself without feeling the exterior pressure ( including yours as a loving parent ).

 

Ah, sometimes it's good to be in a big family. She has two parents and three sisters, a small niece and nephew ... and we are all here to help her. So she shouldn't bother at all.

 

Yeah this is 95% from graphic design. But I have friends that are audio pros, and... it's all the same. Really, in business, you shouldn't have to doubt yourself all that much. And you should trust your doubts. Don't believe your interpretations as truth, that'll turn you into an asshole. But if something smells fishy or feels off, do what Martel did here and talk to people, figure it out.

Mulling it over is good. Continuing into a project with that feeling of doubt in your stomach is rarely good.