Behringer UMC did 5ms RTL for me while still being usable.
Same with the MOTU I'm using now.

Nowadays a lot of them are really good enough for fast latency in my opinion. You just need a fast PC.

 

If you are in the US and would consider Presonus Quantum 2626 it can be had for $699.99 or cheaper depending on where you buy it.
I am not saying that the Presonus is better than RME. I know RME has a audio Interface with Thunderbolt and USB 2 on it which is way more expensive. Either way if you really want the best latency you can get I would defiantly get Thunderbolt as of now.
I was in the same scenario as you about 2 years ago that is why I went Quantum 2626 and thunderbolt.

 

Unfortunately the lower the latency, the higher the price range. That's the just the way the market is at the moment. The world wide chip shortage has affected pricing as well.

For example, Martin Audio Power amps use to come with Dante cards fitted as standard. Now you have to request for the cards to be fitted.

Hopefully chip manufacturing will get back to normal soon.

 

Last edited: Aug 6, 2023

Except that many of the cheap interfaces provide excellent latency nowadays.

 

Can you name one that provides a 1msec latency?

 

No sorry thought we were talking about 3 to 5ms. 1ms is really fast for RTL indeed.
I'm currently using MOTU but was a bit disappointed honestly that the latency isn't better then with Behringer or Focusrite. But still very fast. They are all great!

 

Is your MOTU USB2? I know MOTU has USB2 and Thunderbolt 2 Interfaces.

 

Motu 828ES is 3ms for me connected via either USB type. it makes no real or noticeable difference. Personally, I think most of this "connection speed" differences are something close to hype, esp over such short distance cabling. I had a 40gbps UAD connected via Thunderbolt 3 to same the machine, and it was the same reported latency in Logic. The only actual difference was my cpu fan sounded like my laptop was about to liftoff.

 

Thunderbolt is not USB. USB has a lot of other irrelevant data in the stream unlike Firewire and Thunderbolt.
That is why even with USB 2 reported at 480 MPS and Firewire at 400 MPS Firewire was faster.
This is a fact not a myth.
My 10700k went nuts with USB2 because of all the extra data on USB2. Under Thunderbolt it is at 20% utilization 48k 128 Buffer 24 bit
124 tracks in Reaper. A lot of VST plugins compressors, amp sims. Nexus and other which are very CPU heavy.

Also you are missing what your settings are for your MOTU device?
What Thunderbolt port is your Laptop Thunderbolt 1,2, or 3? Mine is Thunderbolt 3.
Did you get a USB cable or a true Thunderbolt Cable to transfer the data?
USB cables and Thunderbolt bi directional cables are not the same.

Also what MOTU unit do you have?

THe Quantum 2626 is the fastest as of now on Thunderbolt 3.

 

i already told you what motu unit i have. i'm not sure why you are questioning me about stuff i already know. Oh, you just want to talk up your presonus. ;)

ignored.

 

Last edited: Aug 5, 2023

Very true.

On some USB (read: older) chipsets the bus bandwidth is shared between all or some groups of ports, meaning (at least below USB3) all packet delivery is best effort. And well, since USB audio is a additional spec on top of USB itself (not to mention backwards compatibility) most USB interfaces are 2.0. With modern USB chipsets this is not as bad as it was, but oftentimes stuff like trackpads/keyboards/built-in WiFi has to share the USB bus.

Firewire provided (optional, but pretty much always used for audio devices) guaranteed packet delivery from the get go, and manufacturers had to use good FW controllers as a result.

Fun fact: Firewire has been standardized for avionics use, and a FW3200 is used in for instance the F-35 fighter jet. Though I'm sure the FW chips used in those bastards is not exactly off-the-shelf stuff

 

Sorry I missed the Motu 828ES. Did you check your laptop for beautification on the Thunderbolt lanes?

How do I know, you know, this is conversation? Am I to assume you know?

There are only so many lanes on the PCIe buss and if you don't have enough they your Thunderbolt will suffer.
I don't have a Laptop I built a PC and always do because You can not trust a company to make you a DAW to the specs you need.

Also That Motu 828ES. Is Thunderbolt 2. I did research about the MOTU before I got my 2626.
MOTU clearly says that the Thunderbolt and USB 2 speed are almost the same. To me that is a bad implementation of thunderbolt on there device . That is there fault because the bandwidth is way more for Thunderbolt.

So 32 GB thunderbolt 3 is way faster than 480 MPS. So is Thunderbolt 2 20 Gbps. That is 5 GPS per lane.
Even one PCIE lane is way more than 480 MPS. So what does that tell you?

I would not tell people in the thread that Thunderbolt is not better than USB2 because you have a lot of variables that might be effecting you and not other in here. Like me and others that have Thunderbolt and it's better than USB2.

 

Thanks for the help in explaining this. Firewire also was not shared. It was a dedicated card to the PCIE buss.,

 

the 828 MK3 hybrid with firewire is around 2 generations back. It's also not an AVB device. The ES MK2 is AVB, and spec claims are this re: USB. Again, Logic reports essentially the same numbers when it is connected via Ethernet. As example, if 0.3 ms difference is a dealbreaker to you, then you are simply more concerned with the numbers than with the feature set.

What is the round trip latency of the Motu 828es?

MOTU 828es Features:
Optimized drivers yield round-trip latency as low as 1.6ms at 96kHz via Thunderbolt and 1.9ms via USB. The "usb-c" ports of most current macbook pro are all thunderbolt-3 or 4.

 

Last edited: Aug 5, 2023

interesting but the ES is still Thunderbolt 2 not 3. Which means the bandwidth is not as wide.

Have you tried Reaper to see if you get better latency?

1.6ms at 96kHz via Thunderbolt and 1.9ms via USB What buffer and bit rate?

The Ethernet AVB is it Gigabyte?

And as you previously said Bragging on Presonus not in anyway. I am just stating the facts about the device. If this was a MOTU device, Avid or Focus rite I would state the same facts.

This info was to help the OP in determining which device he might want to purchase,
but you seamed to have turned it into a MOTU bashing tread.
I guess you are a MOTU fan boy from your previous statement. Which I hate people like that.

 

Last edited: Aug 5, 2023

USB 2.0 has a bandwidth of up to 480Mbps.

44.1 Khz Audio needs 1.4 Mbps.

The last 10 years I didn't have any issues with USB interfaces at all

I'm aware it's all about the stability and latency and I did to be honest try to find an interface and laptop with thunderbolt but the last few PCs and laptops didn't have it. USB is quite common now and the cheaper interfaces have it. I have a MOTU M4 now and I'm happy. My dream would be the RME UCX II for live performance but it's way to expensive.

The MOTU drivers are shit by the way but what can I do. Even Behringer has better drivers (My MOTU has issues in combination with AMD drivers). Unfortunately I didn't now that beforehand. That's why on stage I have to go Intel or Mac, but different topic. I really tried to find a cheap second hand RME but didn't find any with USB and the features I wanted, which is a display with levels, good converters and high output. For some reason the laptops and PCs don't have thunderbolt any more I think? (I'm in Germany)

 

Last edited: Aug 5, 2023

Back to the topic, I think that bandwidth isn't the problem but stability and implementation is.

Thus I'd assume that OP, if he wants to get as close as possible to 0ms, should use thunderbolt?

 

Last edited: Aug 5, 2023

Yes I agree I think he want as close to 0 MS as he can get for a reasonable price..

I think it's both. Thunderbolt has way more bandwidth to pipe audio which is not as demanding as Video but is is a lot of data.
Also People use Thunderbolt to feed there monitors without any hiccups at HD 4k resolution which will show you just how much bandwidth there is. Try that with USB even USB 3.
I looked at RME also it was way to expensive for a hobbits Musician. Now if i was making a lot of $ doing Music then that was a different story,

Behringer I think they use the open source Drivers and they are not ASIO Is that correct?

USB can do if you make it do but back to the OP Topic close to 0 MS latency. That is not USB 1,2, or 3.

 

They are very common is the U.S. as of today. In fact most mid Motherboards come with a Thunderbolt header. You still need to add a thunderbolt card on if yo don't purchase a high end MB with it on board.

I have a MOTU Midi Express XT for my external midi gear. So I am not biased to a brand. I did have an issue with it that the firmware was crap out of the box ( the unit would lock up during Sysex data transfers ) and the only was to fix it was for me to pay for a referb unit which was $99.00 USD. Kind of piss poor if you ask me a known defect and I had to pay but that didn't effect my decision on not getting a MOTU Interface. What did is the Thunderbolt speed and price.

 

Motu "driver" software is very good in macOS. They are a little slow updating them for newest MacOS but that is what it is. New "driver" for Ventura took at least a month. The USB cable they shipped with the m2/m4 is complete junk. You could get a better cable at a gas station. The USB input port on the M2/M4 is also really dodgy. If they refer to those models as "pro audio", that's a serious stretch of the imagination.

 

Last edited: Aug 5, 2023