Im curious how you guys usually decide when to use a clipper, compressor or a limiter.
I usually tend to compress and limit quite often but in many cases im not sure when to use a clipper.

 

All the time i feel i need it. Those are only tools, you don't need to be afraid of them if you feel you can benefit from its results at any stage. Don't feel afraid to clip/limit annyoing peaks of a guitar or a snare, for example. Or if you want to give the impression of overall louder drums. or to control on mastering. Only the situation will tell and you can always bypass if it's not helping the way you intend

 

Limiting is the same as compression but with a ratio of ->inf. It is not advisable to differ between them two in a context of non true peak limiting situations.
People often do this, to me it's nonsense.

Distortion should be applied to intruments, if the whole context of a song is a rather distorted environment (Doesn't matter if you only mean saturated, or whatever terms you use to describe the process of densening the frequency spectrum). For example distorted synths - drums should be distorted too. Same for the guitar - bass - drums relation. Otherwise you'll lack context and get a characteristical disbalance.

Chris Lord-Alge always uses quite heavy distortion and compression everywhere. His songs sound very tight. In terms of distortion it's just about setting everything into context.

To my experience it is definetely not recommended to hear the grass grow but to create very clear effects. Not just in terms of saturation but in general. Then you do not get into those situations where you do not to really know what to do.

 

It is not just the ratio. Limiting also has zero ms attack. Point being, with a limiter you can't shape the dynamics of a sound anymore.

Back on topic:
- compression: when you want to shape the sound -- enhance the attack, leave the attack unchanged but push down the sustain etc.
- clipping: when you want to control the peaks of the sound and the sound is complex enough to allow clipping (complex sounds can hide the extra harmonics and distortion added by clipping or can even sound beefier)
- limiting: when you want to control the peaks of the sound and the sound can't be controlled via clipping - sub basses (with no upper frequency content can't be clipped without introducing extra unwanted harmonics), organ sound (other sound made of clean sines) can't be clipped, many types of bells, marimbas, pianos, clean guitars, even vocals can't be clipped (except for maybe very short rogue peaks).

So, you want a controlled track: you can use a clipper or a limiter (according to your material) first in the chain, to stabilize the dynamics. Then you can use a compressor (without dealing with rogue peaks, the compressor will work just to enhance the sound, not to figh it) to further shape the dynamics. Every tamed dB counts towards a final loud and clear mix, so it well worth spending time on each track and stabilizing its dynamics.

 

I was thinking about CLA when i stated my usaged of overall compression and distortion on a mix. He's not really afraid of doing those things and my mix became much better with more compressors/limiters/clippers and the funny thing: it sounds more dynamic. Because i don't have crazy peaks and i'm always mixing through series of compressors and limiters. It's a workflow that function for me based on my experience. As i said, the bypass button will always be there, so if weird or squashed things start happening you can always reach your safe nets to check and monitor the dynamics and distortion

 

Compression: can add color, density and level your volume according to whats fitting.

Clipping and limiting: taming transients, getting transients under control, increasing RMS. Clippers usually have an easy time sounding sharp and punchy, limiters more than often end up "softening" or "rounding up" the transients, both cases can be good or bad, depends on context.


Both tools are vibe creators, they create certain vibes depending on how you use them, they have a certain character and the fun thing is to use them in order to shape the vibes of the track: Do you want it dense like a 2010 brostep club track?... or do you want it dynamic and delicate? These are just some examples, there are many directions one can take.

 

Last edited: May 13, 2023

maybe this video help you to understand clipping better ;)

 

Well, that's the way I think of it. The compressor has attack, release, soft knee and ratio. Limiter has no ratio, soft knee or attack, but can have release. Clipper has none of that except soft knee, but adds a lot more harmonics and ISP.

So when I need to change the dynamic "feel" and behaviour of a track, I use a compressor, due to its flexibility. When I need to stop the track from going over a certain threshold, I use a limiter. And when I need to keep the original "feel" of dynamics but make it louder and also don't mind harmonics, I use a soft knee clipper. I can also often cut off peaks of snappy drums with a harder knee clipper instead of bothering a limiter with them and introduce pumping due to release behaviour, or bothering myself with two-stage releases of certain compressors. But I can also do this with a brickwall lookahead limiter with the shortest release possible, depending on what sounds better. Sometimes you want harmonics, sometimes you don't. Depends on your taste.

 

I'm using compression on tracks and subgroups for sound, a TP limiter only for mastering to catch peaks and rarely clippers.

Clippers can, in principle, be used on everything. They have 0 attack and 0 release and are basically waveshapers. The result are added harmonics, which is why they heavily benefit from heavy oversampling (min 4x, better higher).
They are especially good for sounds which either can't be limited effectively (like fundamental waves, or organs) or anything you want to make loud and dirty (snares and their reverb).

Limiters can have less than infinite ratio (analogue emus) and even brickwall limiters can have an attack time (FF, Sonible) [EDIT] and they can even have some attack time (brickwall limiters have neither). [/Edit] They mostly have a release time, sometimes a release ratio (in dB/sec).

 

Last edited: May 13, 2023

In FF's case, attack time doesn't concern the brickwall stage, whose behaviour is controlled by the "lookahead" knob and can't go slower than 0ms. Instead, "attack" and "release" knobs control the second stage, that is aimed at preserving or shaping the original dynamics. Oh, and also attack and release stereo link knobs control the stereo link for the first (brickwall) and second (dynamics) stage of the algorithm instead of the actual attack and release.

I imagine sonible has something along the same lines.

 

To be precise 'The Attack and Release knobs control how quickly and heavily the release stage sets in'. So, it's an attack time for the release stage. I wonder if it has a release time for the attack stage too.

 

A funny thing just happened, I noticed this thread and was about to snark something about "get a life, it's saturday and yet you're all here discussing the minutiae of dynamics"... then I realised what I was doing saying that (and now this) comment.

 

I could be wrong according to others, but I use a clipper when I want to increase the perceived loudness of drums. I'll push until it sounds bad and bring it back until the distortion is gone typically.
Compression I use sparingly to slightly tame a track. I pretty much only use on vocals or on live instruments. Any programmed tracks typically don't need it in my music.
Limiter I use to really control either and element such as vocals with super high peaks in certain areas or on a mix bus or master bus at a very light setting to make sure that there aren't any elements that you can't hear as well as the peaks.
I'm not a professional audio engineer with a masters in answering technical questions, but this is what I do.

 

Learn what compression, Limiting & clipping does. If you know what it does you will know when to use it. Thats the best answer you can get.

 

Yeah its one of things where theres many different reasons for limiting, and for clipping, mainly i guess its more a sound design technique for me coupled with overall mix basics, im not explaining myself very well i realise this

Im trying to avoid the loudness wars, and in DnB or Hard House that can be difficult but i myself tend to design everything from kick to snare to hats to bass to pads etc etc, so theres an argument for writing whilst hardlimiting the entire mix which can be effective but its not a simple proccess to get correct and the moment you switch your limiters off, because youve written it whilst hardlimiting the mix is awfull if that makes sense, Unless you hard limit specific elements and resample them as i do then apply your work to your mix , Thats just me though maybe, i do sit here for hours n hours just designing drums n basses n stabs n stuff for use at a later point

what sort of thing do you write? what genre
i ask simply because with a better understanding of what your trying to achieve i can more than likely help?

compession is something that for me shouldnt shape the sound as much as gel a mix, but again theres different rules of engagment depending what ones doing

Also its very very easy to overapply both compression and limiting and screw up your overall vibe and clarity of your work!!
Hence why i resample most elements multiple times and reapply them to my mix after the fact then apply subtle glue compression and usually maximizasion overall

 

Last edited: May 13, 2023

FF pro-L2 has some cool settings for drum busses, at least for a brickwall. The dynamic mode with FB compression (no lookahead) and proper attack and release times can give a nice glue to the drums, if not abused. When i don't want my drums to "dance and move" with a bus compressor i go for the pro-L2 and don't feel i'm loosing a lot.

 

Exactly, @洋鬼子, learn the shit, but don't dare to ask or you might get answers like this

Where's the facepalm emoji when you need it? Ah, here,

 

To be honest I already knew how Limiters , Compressors and clippers work on a basic level .
The problem is that just because I know how these tools work doesn't mean I know how to apply it.
Usually I just fuck around with the settings until it sounds good.
I was looking for general rule of thumb to apply it in a mixing context.

 

Last edited: May 13, 2023

Im mainly mixing metal but im also writing movie scorish stuff at the moment.
I use a master bus compressor often to tame the kicks and snares in a mix but nothing crazy (never more than about 3dB).
Nolly's master bus is the current method that im using to get a better mix but a top down mix also has it's disadvantages.

 

I think Serban Ghenea approach regarding compression and limiting can be quite useful and not complex at all, like CLA's. His assistant John Hanes, at the (in)famous GSlutz interview said he follows a simple method for mixbus compression, that is kind of:

" I'm not sure of the mathematics involved [...]first compressor doing 2dB of compression and then another doing 2dB of compression and limiting would add up to more than one compressor or limiter doing 4dB of work[...] No clipping plugin on the master bus, though the limiter can be pushed there as needed."

"Generally speaking it isn't going to be a ton. For a standard mid tempo maybe 1.5 to 2dB on a compressor and another 1 to 2dB at the end of the chain in combined compression and limiting. For a really aggressive song, it could be 3dB on the compressor and 2dB down the chain of compression and limiting. if I'm approaching 3dB at the end of the chain, I'd really start looking at my gain structure. I'm paying attention to gain staging and gain structure through the whole mix, it isn't really something that you can easily fix at the end of the process."

He also states about mixing through the final limiter, so you can hear how the overall compression affects the material you're working:

"Yes I always mix into the master chain with limiting on from the beginning of the mix. If you try to put something on at the end of the process it will undo or change a bunch of the work that you already put in. Mix into the glue!"


And... he prefers strong fast compression instead of clipping and limiting on individual channels:

"I'd say that I don't tend to use a specific limiter on individual tracks often, though I might push a compressor into a fast attack mode when needed"

Here's the link if you want to see it complete, i think it's one of the best free content out there coming from someone that doesn't really do (paid or free) masterclasses

https://gearspace.com/board/interviews/1362525-interview-john-hanes.html