I am looking at buying an old tape player/recorder to record my mixes from my DAW to tape, and then rerecording from the tape back into the DAW to hopefully capture the tape compression, and other nuances.

Is this a bad idea? Are there easier ways to go about this? Can you record into, and through a tape, and run it, from the tape, into the DAW directly, while the tape is playing or recording? I've tried plug-ins and it just doesn't sound the same as a tape to me.

Thank you for any help you can provide!!

 

i never experienced tape "compression" what i always heard was a blend of parallel limiting and 3rd harmonics added back in, you can do that more effectively in the box

 

If it does not cost you too much, it's a good idea.

Yes you can "record into, and through a tape, and run it, from the tape, into the DAW directly"
But there will be some delay, as the record head is before the play head. The distance between the heads and the tape speed will determine the delay time.

You can also listen and record "through" the tape recorder, but in this case you will only have the preamp effect of the tape recorder, not the "tape sound".

Last but not least, if you decide to do so, you have to take care of several aspects:
- The tape recorder's quality, as you wouldn't have any benefit from doing that with a bad one.
- The tape recorder technical state: you have to check that the tape speed is constant; you have to check that the recording and reading heads are in good state; obviously the electronic of the preamp and the output amp must also be ok.
- Last but not least, find good tapes, which I don't know how easy or cheap it is today.

 

Absolutely.

Yes, you can recreate all of those side effects digitally.

 

The delay times are: 7.4 ips = 250 ms & 15 ips = 125 ms

These values are approximations and not completely exact, because the distance between the record button and the playback button varies slightly on each tape machine. Within these given fixed speeds, the playback speed, and consequently the delay time, can usually be changed by up to 10% on analog tape machines built in the 1980s and 1990s.

PMA-BASICS: ANALOGER SOUND
https://pma--magazin-de.translate.g...l=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Belt speeds - Worth knowing
https://www-studerundrevox-de.trans...l=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

 

There is only one way to get true analog recording. That is to record TO analog.
If you send digital to analog, it is analog recording digital.
One of the true beauties of analog not many people speak of is the low end NATURAL harmonic distortion and highs that are not ear-piercing.
Digital is represented by connecting the dots and analog is represented by a sinusoidal waveform.
There is an old cliché - "You cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear"
Digital to Analog and back to digital is still digital. It cannot capture something that was never there in the first place.

 

Some people like it and some don't.

You can sent audio out to anything and back into your DAW if you are looking for colors, whether you like it or not really depends on you.

Good habits to have when doing thing like this, sync beeps and metronome lead ins on every track. Adjusting RTL on inputs and inserts. If you this enough maybe start looking into timecode and resync. Keeping external units in good working order and testing them often to make certain they still are.

Cheers.

 

Thank you so much! How would you add the tape player to your chain? Like Guitar > Tape Player > Interface, while the Tape Player is actively recording? Or does it just have to be playing the blank tape?

 

I mentioned that the plug-ins don't sound the same to me. Why do you think it's a bad idea? Is it quality loss?

 

There's no way I would do this unless I was going to get a Tape Machine that was really worth the additional effort and cost for the average musician/producer. And quite a few ME's. I watched a "Snake oil YT dude" where he explains his Analog Mastering setup to a short extent.
He has his wonderful tape machine stuck over in the corner of the room and you can tell he isn't going to use it unless someone specially asks him to do it, or a song that absolutely would be better. It's stored in the corner for a reason. Couple thousand bucks you don't want to be reminded about spending while you work with the stuff that makes more sense usually.

I learned on an Otari with razor blades and all that stuff. No way would I do this in 2022. There are some very nice plugins like Kramer Tape, DECAP, or Saturn where you can get nice tape saturation without. And 20 other features in the same GUI.

I can happily talk about actual DAC/ADC whatever; but those details are not why I wouldn't even think to do this myself and would never recommend it to someone unless they were very sure they needed to. Or you are wasting your money.

I'd rather spend the money on something like a used UAD 2912 or something. This, no way in hell. Watch that video of Wytse. You won't buy whatever you are looking into. You could just pay him and send him your song so he has reason to keep his still. It looks very lonely.

I never noticed we use the same mouse before. Unfortunately, the similarities end there until you get to the ProQ3. He's probably got Kirchhoff EQ now running 117bit (sometimes) too. ;)

 

Last edited: Nov 9, 2022

Probably. It's one thing to do this if you want a lo-fi effect, because then it doesnt matter that much if the tape recorder is lower quality, but if you want to get high quality tape recordings for a subtle analog flavour (for mastering etc) then you will have to spend quite a lot of money. You will probably have to spend tons of time learning how to properly set up and repair your tape recorder as well.

If you decide to do this, consider looking at analog tape emulators first. There are some superb ones like Tegeler Audio Magnetismus (would be my pick if you only want the "tape compression"), Neve 542, Anamod ATS-1, ELI Fatso, and others. They will be infinitely more easy to maintain, and use.

 

It's just way to expensive if you can recreate it digitally.

 

I've seen ppl using "repro" mode and compensate with Voxengo Sound Delay :
https://www.voxengo.com/product/sounddelay/

You let tape band run, and record back with plugin as "insert BEFORE recording".
It is almost realtime.

No time lost.

Read this :
https://gearspace.com/board/so-much...tegrate-tape-machine-into-digital-studio.html

 

It's crazy slow and complicated process for something that rarely needs to be done anymore with tape. The day anyone makes a song that needs this process done to it so that it is more great, it will already be great and the processing and mastering is going to be done by someone else anyway. Let them pay for the damn thing to sit around in the meantime. You could spend the money on something that makes good noises, rather than worry about re-recording shitty ones.

 

Simply - anything that has been recorded digitally can never be analog, only an emulation that is missing the natural sinusoidal harmonic distortion with whatever attempts to recreate it.

 

I noticed within another topic, we intersected with some minor differences of views on this. you didn't elaborate for whatever reason, but I knew what you were trying to get at. How is any signal, irregardless of source and signal chain of active powered devices such as mixers and so on, not an analog signal when it reaches the Analog to Digital Convertors of the interface? I believe your statement to be true, when applied to "analog synthesis"; but is not inclusive of analog sources of any kind supplying a 1/4" standard audio in. Like from a big snake. It does not matter because power has been applied. Cable/connector/power or other distortion and saturation causes do not count because of what is connected at the end of the signal flow? Im not certain of this at all. If the input source does not reach the interface as either a Spdif, Optical, AES/EBU, DB2, etc; it is an analog input source. The Digital Recording is converted back to an analog when it leaves any playback device and converted back again at the other end of the print thru loop the user would setup to accomplish this using the analog outs/sends of their interface. no?>. it's how I would recommend someone set this up. but I wouldn't do that to them.

I do not mean to imply you are incorrect, but maybe I am wrong. Whatever, one of us can learn this one here. Because it is actually on-topic. If my understand of this is incorrect, why does anyone bother for it to stay digital? that is a circle jerk. What I believe is actually true of all, is that you would be correct to state that any negative impacts to the audio quality which could be caused by conversions and any necessary introduced white noise for dithering or digital distortion caused by truncation is done. damage done may be irreversible. hth

 

Last edited: Nov 10, 2022

Been recording since the late 80s -- crazy to me to think about how much time, money and effort we put into trying to get the cleanest sound possible with the absolute best technology available (of that era) we were trying to duck all that shit (Poor Recording Practices, Tape Bleed, Tape Hiss, Board Hum, Ground Loop, Noise Floor, Cable Buzz, Feedback, Sketchy Mics, Sketchy Cables, Sketchy Gear, Synth Hum, Ambient Room Noise, ETC) -- fast forward 40 years -- and the trend is to create an audible noise floor, over saturate, and intentionally add sonic degradation and artifacts.

But I get it -- nostalgia, a feel, something - and hey, honestly - some of the best music was recorded on a 4-track, and radio broadcast in MONO to boost the signal - so, yeah - everything is everything - totally subjective

I did this several years back -- Bought a vintage Pioneer RT-909 to recapture the true saturation, wow and flutter that only tape can provide. I'd tried the plugin emulations at that time (now vastly improved), and didn't quite feel 'convincing' enough. Said that, I loved the output - did exactly what I wanted it to do (and is a damn fine Reel to Reel deck besides) - though I loved end product - getting through it (the process) was cumbersome, and a bit costly (overall) - I ended up selling that bad ass (lack of use) but wish I hadn't -- its fetching well over 1k for broken ones

Oh - and NO, you can't use the deck as a THRU to extract the properties of the TAPE - has to be recorded to tape, THEN played back to your DAW/DAC or Digital Recording device

Anyway - as many have previously suggested, there are plenty of ways to introduce noise, saturation, artifacts & nuance to your projects digitally (in the box) - having said that --- it's worth a try. Don't let ANYONE lead you astray from what could potentially be your SIGNATURE sound, if you have an idea -- try it out, experiment -- My only suggestion; maybe don't spring for the expensive vintage Pioneer stainless steel rack mount reel-to-reel & scarce AMPEX media right out of the gate ... maybe *ease* into it. An old Technics Cassette deck and some TDKs maybe ... just sayin'



Best of luck - do your thang

 

Last edited: Nov 10, 2022

Thank you for the detailed response. My comment was in reference to any analog outboard print loop using dedicated sends out of the interface in their realtime scenario. The only difference when the outgoing signal is recorded to tape is that any analog output of the interface may be used to send it, as well.

 

You hit the target, mission accomplished!

 

Absolutely worth it. I heard of some mix engineers who do it with their drums, just not sure if it's the bus or individual channels.