Hello, everyone


I would like to talk about gain staging and what could be a proper way to do it based on my workflow.

So, first off, I use Klanghelm VUMeter as first and last plugin of a track’s chain. The first instance is for making sure that the level of my software instrument/audio recording is around 0VU/-18dbFs.

Doing that, I ensure the level feeding the plugins is around -18dbFs, which is the so called “sweet spot” for analog-modelled plugins. Then I check the VUMeter inserted as last part of the chain so that I can manage to add or remove gain according to the various plugins (EQ, Comp, Sat, etc). Doing so I ensure the level remains the same or, if I want, I can set the last VUMeter reference to 0VU/-12dbFs if I want to raise the overall volume of the track from those initial -18dbFs.

Do you think this is a better way to do it than using different stuff? I am talking for example about using HorNet Normalizer of GainMatch for achieving the “same” result.


Could anybody tell me what are their thoughts about this and if the workflow example I wrote is a good, “proper” way?


Thank you very much, guys.

 

I use HoRNet VU Meter MK4 and it does the job quick and easy. Currently on super sale for just 1,80€

 

I heard it can manage, and the price is obviously a go to, but regarding what I wrote, I would like to know how your workflows, your ways of implementing classic VUMeters or plugins (HoRNet Normalizer or VU Meter MK4, for example) actually are.

 

I'm gonna sound rude, but not because of personal gripes. Rather, I have gripes with the specific understanding of gain staging you and many others demonstrate. So please don't take my tone personally.

That being said, do you even understand what gain staging is needed for?
Its original purpose is not to push any equipment into nonlinear territory and not to introduce any unwanted distortion. So back when personal computers and DSP were not a thing, engineers looked carefully not to drive any and every piece of equipment into distortion. This, among other things, required a lot of headroom.
AND THAT'S IT. It had one positive side effect, which I'll come to later, but that's it. A very specific and narrow goal.
Now, when mixing in the box, you kinda have the same goal of not introducing unwanted crap into your mix. But a big difference is, plugins don't go nonlinear unless they are told to. Generally you don't want to exceed 0dB at any point in the chain, but that's where your gain staging ends with digital. If your plugins distort when driven above -18dB (and if you don't want them to), you're using crappy plugins. But do they even? I don't think any of the ones I used (admittedly I mostly use unashamedly DSP ones, but I got around some anal-mod stuff in my time) do that. What's the point of your actions?
(Really tho, you ought to ask this question every time you do anything in the mix. What do you do that for? If the answer is "because that's what they told me", then you're not doing it right.)
There is one very useful mixing tip regarding gain staging. Make sure no plugins in any given chain change the signal volume. This way you won't let volume changes fool your perception and will be able to adequately judge the changes you're making. The old ways of analog gain staging naturally led to that, but it wasn't the point.
Other than that, leave maybe 6 dB of headroom for individual channels so it'll be easier to make changes and process busses (including the whole mix), make sure your plugins and plugin chains don't change signal volume (except for the limiter/maximizer at the very end, obviously). Learn to do that by ear. And don't clip the master (0.2 dB headroom is enough). That's all the gain staging you're going to need ITB.

 

well I use a VU meter to take note of the loudness and stay there (dBU)
usually the more I beef up a sound the quieter it is (dbfs)

I put it at the end of the chain

 

any reaper users in this topic? i was looking at the effectiveness of the included VU meters, and the js meter. because the js version (balistic meter style) can be displayed directly in the master channel and the included ones (bar style) can have those adjustments made right in the DAW.
so, how do those two versions compare to Klanghelm which im familiar with?
edit: asking because im newly learning reaper.
re-edit: for this purpose i use VU for comparing one energy + a second energy in each items range. thanks

 

Was waiting for the mandatory "it doesn't matter ITB" reply. Not going to argue against that per se. If you're only using digital plugins (I know they are all digital, but meaning here those that aren't modeled after analog gear) it doesn't matter as listed above. However... IF you want to emulate analog workflow and use plugins that are specifically modeled after analog gear, you really want to be watching your gain staging. And your method is very good for that.

I use the Hornet plug mentioned above calibrated at 0VU=-18dBFS (RMS) with a peak protection at -6dBFS (PEAK) (which just means that if you have a particularly transient signal going in, it can be peaking above -6dBFS even though it's not reaching -18dBFS (RMS) in which case the RMS will be lower than -18dBFS, which is fine). The only thing to take note of, if you want to be pedantic about it (and don't we all ), is to make sure you know your plugins. There are, for example, a few UAD plugs - the ATR and Studer tape at least - that are calibrated to -12dBFS while most of their stuff is -18. Not a huge deal but it can be useful to know in order to be aware of how you are driving them.

 

HoRNet VU Meter MK4 all the way. In general, the sweet spot rule stands in the analog world, we can only guess that plugins will invariable end up modelling the hardware characteristics that cause this "sweet spot" to exist in the first place, I still do it for 2 reasons: because...just in case? But, also it's easier to me to get to a good result when all my tracks loudness are around -18dbfs.

 

Last edited: Nov 23, 2021

Never used it but it has a good amount of customization and its always being updated. Only reason I use MK4 is for convenience (at least during the prep mix), overall Reaper meters (LUFs, Crest, etc) are top notch imo.

 

@Randlefish I've never ever needed a VU plugin ITB (only for test purposes). ATME this isn't necessary. But if you're looking for a quite versatile and free one https://www.tbproaudio.de/products/mvmeter2

Close, it's 18dB FS peak, not RMS, test it and you'll see. A sine wave with -18dB FS peak will show 0VU for this calibration.

 

interesting topic. so, @No Avenger , then how do you measure/meter for a buildup of energy? just looking for explanation of the method

 

@No Avenger , like this?

 

How do you measure bloody what? Sorry for jabbing, but what is a "buildup of energy"?

 

Precisely. Set each level so the cone blows up. A bit costly but works.

Seriously, I'm doing peak gainstaging. If an analogue emu pluggie doesn't have an input control and responds badly to a too high level, I'm using a levelling plugin, but this is rarely the case.

 

There's another aspect, SNR..
you don't want a signal that goes too low, or it may lose dynamic range/detail, specially at lower bit depths..
(-18db RMS sounds like a good value,
just don't make it go like under -40/50, unless it's a super small detail or a reverb signal or smth..)

Just as you don't want to go too loud, beyond that "sweet spot" for analog modeled plugs,
or at least beyond 0db in general digital terms. (although afaik DAWs with 32/64bit processing can go there no problem)

However going there means really Low/Loud signals..
24/32bit FP Digital audio gives you a very broad range where you can work without loss.


I personally don't care much,
because I found my instruments/tracks are somehow giving me the right amount from the get go.

And that just happened casually,
I listen at a certain volume, and so I adjust it to sound good for me at that volume.

And for whatever reason after applying all instruments filters/eq/comp and the master plugs,
I often get a signal which is around -17LUFs with a (roughly) -6db peak, which is my actual LUFS goal..
I may have to adjust it +/-1 to 3db before/after the master bus, but that's really it, and it just happened naturally..


(Also if you use Limiters to shape/color your sound,
you can set the ceiling/threshold to be virtually lower than 0/clipping point, and still get the same result..)

 

Last edited: Nov 23, 2021

like to measure a bass plus a kick, i learned to set the VU to read both hitting at the same time. in simple terms. gets more complicated with vocals or alot of mid range material, but same principle

 

So spectral overlaps? By ear then, I guess? Also you can have a spectrum analyzer on your mix bus, it'll show you if there's too much of certain frequencies. You'll still have to engage with your ears to determine the specific problems tho. I really don't understand how a VU-meter can help with that.

 

no, by meter. let me see if i can find youtube brb

not the exact lesson, but these are all over the place. some use -3 some -12 whatever but schepps method i have a hard time with. i learned it from a 12 hour paid class not that thats any better, just supporting teachers i like. dont know this guy

 

Last edited: Nov 23, 2021

I never use a VU meter plugin to tell me where I am signal wise while recording with plugins and never have issues later down the signal stream, all I ever need and needed are the level indicators in the DAW. I use my ears on the analog side from mic to preamp to compressor to ITB whilst setting levels and create color or not to my need in my plan. The only time I use a dedicated VU is on the master buss to keep an eye that it's not running too hot and give leeway for "mastering" later on.

 

im still kinda into the Marty Mcfly method.. sometimes.
but seriously, i get huge buildup way too fast. maybe theres an underlying problem. like maybe its my wrist not my ear?