One of the hallmarks of jazz musicians is the use of these types of chords. Unfortunately, the right ways to work with these chords are not taught everywhere, and people themselves are trying to find ways to use them. You might say that these chords are found everywhere on the Internet, but I think no one knows how to work with these chords properly.

A lot of people see the use of these chords as an honor for themselves, and they think that if they use these chords and complex structures, everyone would think how genius these musicians are but I've not heard any usage that sits in my heart and mind and be attracted to it. The idea of using these chords is old, but there's still a lot of unspoken things about these chords.

If you know good ways to use these chords, please tell us. Thanks!

 

A mystery indeed
how to provide a genuinely positive response for others and still tell the forum's most notorious troll to piss off?

[1] Shortest meaningful answer
[2] The positive 'theory' answer - regrettably redundant here
[3] The negative but relevant 'debunking' answer for the troll

===

[1] Shortest meaningful answer
If you truly want to find what you call 'good ways to use these chords' then the straight answer and best answer is to find actual musical examples that you personally like and analyse them. And whatever examples you personally choose, someone on Youtube will be there to help you learn how to play them and how to analyse them.
That's it - case solved - but you need to do the work!

[2] The positive 'theory' answer - regrettably redundant here

Spoiler: [2] The positive 'theory' answer - regrettably redundant here

There are hundreds of superb books readily available (old and new). You have to be blind or deliberately stupid to ignore all the brilliant answers that can be found in those books. And you are spoilt for choice with your preferred chordal instrument, guitar or piano.
If you are serious about understanding the IDEAS then your preferred instrument won't matter too much. A serious guitarist will happily learn from piano books and vice versa. A serious trumpet player playing monophonic melodies (no chords) will still happily study chords and theory of harmony using a piano. I couldn't be bothered to recommend specific books - there are just too many out there.

Similarly with videos. Your statement below is an absolute load of bollox.

Pure bollox - the reality is (again) you are spoilt for choice with superb free videos.

The reasons you can't find what you are looking for are...
a) because you don't actually want the answer
b) because even if you did want it - all you want is the thin quick fix answer and you can't face up to the fact that the real answer requires serious study. What you call mysterious extended chords are just the tip of an iceberg. You need to study and understand the rest of the iceberg first - or forget it.

But to positively oblige... here's just a few of the hundreds of relevant videos out there.
I am picking the simpler introductory examples. More advanced stuff is readily available but people who are ready for that already know how to find it without any help from here.

Note that I chose piano examples - but NOT because they are for pianists.
Presenting these ideas without any instrument is harder, and piano feels like a more neutral choice than guitar - just easier to visualise.

The 7 Levels of Jazz Harmony - Adam Neely

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz3WR-F_pnM

It's important to recognise that studying chords is better in some kind of context.
Maybe better to deliberately choose a very simple context.
So take something very simple and explore the endless topic of reharmonisation
Jingle Bells | Gospel Jazz Chords | Piano Tutorial

www.youtube.com/watch?v=koc6yaEv5oM

and more deliberately non-advanced examples tucked away in this spoiler

Spoiler: More non-advanced examples that are accompanied by nice explanations

Explore various videos on this guy's site - Julian Bradley
e.g.,
Top 6 Rootless Chord Voicings That Every Jazz Pianist Needs to Know

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q0413UQjrs

How to write Sweet Chord Progressions [1 of 3]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho4oRlwV61g

How to write Sweet Chord Progressions [2 of 3]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnN3Qt4rE9Y

How to write Sweet Chord Progressions [3 of 3]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHF0Ext0NmY

Jazz Piano Chord Voicing Lesson [1 of 2]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Yd8i8vt0E&t=2s

Jazz Piano Chord Voicing Lesson [2 of 2]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSHRFn5gUEY

Sweet Jazz Piano Chords | 3 'Kenny Barron Style' Progressions

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrmDElao_oQ

RnB Gospel Piano

www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4a6QWjLcYM

See also countless web sites that are designed as courses
Again too many to mention - so just one example here

Spoiler: Example course

See this site http://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz-piano-lessons/

Here's an odd comment to make and an important point to understand....
This 'JAZZ PIANO' site is really useful for people who are...
- not especially interested in Jazz
- not especially interested in playing piano

IF you are seriously interested in learning about the nuts and bolts of how music works, then be prepared to find that information wherever it is taught well. Maybe you want to be a better rock guitarist - you can still learn relevant stuff from a jazz piano site.
It's the general music ideas that matter and those ideas apply everywhere.

This site includes tutorials for an impressive list of interesting musical concepts.
See the harmony section on the left of the map... Chords, Progressions, Voicings
One way or another you need to explore ALL OF those topics. If you personally don't like the lessons on the jazzpiano site then just use the image above as a roadmap and start exploring somewhere else.

[3] The negative but relevant 'debunking' answer for the troll

Spoiler: [3] The negative but relevant 'debunking' answer for the troll

The way you pose the question reveals a truly shallow understanding of what is involved. You seem to think that there is a giant dictionary of chords somewhere and by each chord is a little rule telling you where and how to use it.

It reminds me of being 11 years old and suddenly starting to learn a 2nd language, and I naively thought this was just going to be learning a foreign dictionary! I had no ideas about language structure, grammar, etc, I though it would be just learn a dictionary and then do a one-for-one swap of English words to 2nd language words. That's pretty dumb even for an 11 year old kid!
But your questions are actually more dumb than that!

But a much worse thing is going on here.
This is just another one of your routine troll exercises where the goals are absolutely NOT to learn anything at all.

You could not care less about the subject matter - your sole motivation is to pose a question that can bait everyone into an argument and then allow you to express your puerile prejudices against any form of music that you don't like. That tired routine is itself just an excuse for you to pretend to yourself that you actually matter - instead of the reality of you being an insignificant troll.

You are always happy to include sentences that are total bollox.
You don't care about saying stupid garbage or looking stupid yourself, in fact you do both deliberately just to get a reaction.
Your attention seeking "please respond to me" childishness is pathetic.

Allow me to parody your question...

One of the hallmarks of TROLLS is the use of these types of posts. Unfortunately, the right ways to deal with these posts are not taught everywhere, and people themselves are trying to find ways to defend against them.

A lot of moronic trolls see the use of these posts as an honor for themselves, and they think that if they use these posts and disingenuous questions, everyone would think how genius these trolls are.

If you know good ways to eliminate trolls, please tell us.

But we already know the wise answer. The mods regularly tell us "Don't feed the troll"
So of course I have failed by responding here. (Sorry Mods )
But I knew somebody would respond, so all I tried to do was leave both a positive answer and post a troll alert at the same time.

The End - Don't feed the Troll

 

Last edited: Oct 27, 2021

Sorry, mate, what chords are you referring to? Only thing I can tell you is that if it IS a CHORD then it sure has a due function in a due context so, you will need to give examples.

 

Good answer, that closes the deal until second notice.

 

BASIC answer:

They are taught everywhere. For example, initially in classically trained musicians, they might be told that a D triad in the right hand and a Cmaj7 in the left hand is called a 'polychord'. In jazz the same structure is called the same but with a single label Cmaj13#11. In modern teaching of all styles students are taught the same simple labelling system now, and what it is - a polychord.

Yet again you are confusing yourself.
Here is a very covered Robben Ford cover of a Duke Ellington tune from his 'Talk to your daughter' album to illustrate using known artists... Roberta Flack in her number one hit "Feel like makin' love' uses an A9#11 to go into the bridge starting on Abmaj7. James Ingram on Quincy Jones #1 album "The Dude" the hit Ballad "One-hundred ways" is full of polychords, all appropriate for the melody.

The first chord below in Ford's tune is an F7#9 - Before you make any generalisations, Jimi Hendrix also used that chord type (Purple Haze) and also diminished chords (Red House). Doobie Brothers "Jesus is just alright with me" they use an E7#9 as the main turnaround to an F7#9 and back to the E7#9 as one of its noticeable pivot points.

Robben Ford: At 15 seconds and on approach to the 15 second you can hear several polychords. I have not tested but it sounds relatively like a Dominant13#11.
By the way many people consider Robben Ford a blues guitarist. He started as a prodigy in the L.A. fusion band 'L.A.Express' at 19 years of age and is extremely well versed in harmony.

Lose your hate of jazz through complete lack of understanding by creating posts that can only be viewed as stirring trouble under the guise of a question.
Just post "I hate jazz" At least it is honest.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2021

I found this lying around on that InterWeb thingy. So mysterious
By OP's logic this must be just another one of those videos
where no-one knows how to work with those mystery chords properly.

How to Play Roberta Flack's Feel Like Makin' Love - Guitar tute - (nice lazy feel simple version)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEmuiYl11Mw

 

Here you are FOSTER Mystery chord The Beatles
https://blog.discmakers.com/2019/03/mystery-chords-a-hard-days-night-and-london-calling/

Remember a mystery is something nobody understands. Once it is understood it is no longer a mystery.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2021

Oh bugger - (quick panic - resort to troll-tricky-mode-2)...
"Yeah - but did these mop-top upstarts know how to work with this chord properly?"

 

As I said but anyway thanks for your contributions.

 

Hello my friend

I would be happy to help with extended chords
And how to use them .

Let's start simple.

The key of C major .
CDEFGABC

There are 3 functions .
( groupings of chords )

Tonic , hero home relaxed passive still

Subdominant , journey, active , motion away from home

Dominant, the villian , active , tension, farthest away from home .

Let's look closer at the Tonic function for this particular question you have.

Cmaj13#11
C...E...G...B...D...F#...A
R...3....5...7...9.#11...13

The upper extensions of the tonic function in the key of C major.

You can see we have F# the #11th of C major
As a upper extension.
( this is because the upper extensions are just color .
They cannot destroy the function of the chord.

But let's look closer at you exact question.
We have this chord symbol

Cmaj13#11
CEGBDF#A

And we know that it is a tonic function

( meaning , we have the information of the chord
And we also have the information if where to use it )

This is where the rubber hits the road in answering
HOW exactly is the information used to create something musical ?

( answering your exact question)

We can keep things clamped down in a simple example .

So we will have a 4/4 section which is structured like this.

Tonic/Tonic/Tonic/Tonic

So we don't have to deal with anything else besides what you are asking in your question
( for now )

Now the chord symbol

Cmaj13#11

C...E...G.. B...D...F#...A...
R.. 3...5...7...9..#11...13..

This is only information is says nothing about what to play .

For that we have to convert the information into

[ Voicings ]

We have Drop2 , Drop3, Drop2&4
Voicings for each inversion of a 4 note chord .

How it works for a Maj13#11

Step 1

Is to start by creating a Maj6 chord from the root

C6 CEGA
CEGA
EGAC
GACE
ACEG

Let's use drop 3 for this portion
( drop the 3rd highest note down one octave )

CEGA becomes ECGA
EGAC becomes GEAC
GACE becomes AGCE
ACEG becomes CAEG

Now we have 4 voicings per octave
( something playable now )

This only covers the bottom portion of our
Cmaj13#11 Tonic function chord symbol .









Next we create a Major6 chord two semitones higher
C6 is CEGA

and D6 is DF#AB

( this gives us the upper extensions)
D6
DF#AB
F#ABD
ABDF#
BDF#A

THIS time we will use Drop 2
( drop the 2nd highest note down an octave)

D6 DF#AB

DF#AB becomes drop2 ADF#B
F#ABD becomes drop2 BF#AD
ABDF# becomes drop2 DABF#
BDF#A becomes drop2 F#BDA

Now we have 4 voicings per octave
( something to play )






Finally the last step we are going
To combine our 4 ( C6 Cmajor6) Drop3 voicings per octave
( in low register)

With our 4 Drop2 ( D6 Dmajor6) Drop2 voicings per octave ( in higher register)

So what we have is a specific blueprint for playing
Cmaj13#11 tonic function chord in key of C major .

We combine two different major6 drop voicings.

This gives us C6 drop3 in bottom register with D6 drop2 voicing stacked on top of it to where we have 4 distinct Voicings per octave .

Now that we have our blueprint of what specifically
To play and how and where all we do is use rhythm in different ways to attach to these structures


But , the amazing thing us that because you have 4 voicings per octave, you can create any melodic contour and rhythm contour with the shapes such to where any melody you create actually can be harmonized as well .


free image hosting

( note, in this above example we used a drop3 on bottom drop2 on top you can switch to many different combinations of drop2,drop3,drop2&4 on bottom and top ) once you get extremely familiar with the drop voicings , you can then begin to mix those together as well to create your own voicings which
Have 4 permutations per octave )

Thanks for asking about that fine sir.

 

Last edited: Oct 27, 2021

It is perfectly okay for anyone to say "Can someone explain...." ~OR~ "I do not get this..."
A mystery is something that cannot be explained.
To say something like below when resources everywhere and in proper music schools are available is ignorant and really very silly.

When you make sweeping statements like below that are completely unfounded in the slightest fact because YOU do not understand it, not the entire world cannot understand it, the first question in a retort which you have received many times is 'How old are you?" is deserved.
You are insulting a 100-year-old art form, which it is now. At 100 years, it became an art form. By all means, hate it or do not like it - that comes down to personal likes and dislikes. Jazz earned its place in music history, you have NOT.

If you want assistance ask for it, do not shit on something you have a zero understanding of just because you do not understand it because it only makes you look like a fool with a chip on their shoulder.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2021

Every art has some specific qualities that distinguish it from other arts. IMHO, the qualities that can be enumerated for jazz art are:

• Muddiness
• Disguisedness
• Vagueness

Maybe you don't accept these and express other qualities. These qualities are not bad, and maybe some people would be found to love them.

Let me ask you these questions:

1. Can anything be considered art?
2. Can art have any form and structure just because some people love it?

 

If anything you should exemplify your question instead of asking more vague questions regarding the topic, don't you think? You are the one that isn't quite sure about what's going on with """"jazz""" and extended chords here, we need some examples and context if you want proper advice. Otherwise I don't see the intelectual value in speculating the abstract "muddiness" of Jazz, or any other general aesthetical dilemma that was vaguely put here.

Let't be practical and have good sense if you have a question and want help to further clarify it.

Cheers.

 

EDIT: Yeah, best not to feed the greedy troll

 

Last edited: Oct 29, 2021

So, your thread is, again, a way to post your personal false statements and judgements.
Not a real question.

No, because much more people than you think know those chords and use them as a usual part of their musical vocabulary. They don't feel any genius by doing this.
Only complexed ignorants think this.

 

Tolstoy says: Ignorant peasants are often much wiser than their masters.

 

Music producers for avoiding muddiness use equalizers and other processing tools but there are no simple tools to avoid muddiness in working with extended chords. The only tool that may not be used much is constant thinking at any moment of time. But the human mind is not built for instantaneous thinking and choosing the best possible at the same time. Man needs time to think. The more complicated the problem, the more complicated the solutions and the more time it takes.

Theory books don't teach how to think spontaneously and suffice to a series of pre-written patterns. These patterns are so wide and diffuse that they can't be easily remembered and used at any moment we'd like. This is even more complicated in the case of extended chords, because there are so many compounds and there is no simple rule for them.

If there's even a little neglect when it comes to choosing the notes of extended structures, it ends up muddiness. Some people easily deal with muddiness and don't think about it much or consider it part of the nature of jazz, but what about a person who doesn't like muddiness?

 

Cool but can you provide an example of anything you're saying? You haven't provided any examples of any of the statements and terms you used so I can't really agree, disagree or help you with that.

 

You may not have been here a few years ago. The person this thread was started by used to be known as "FOSTER". He may have the record for the most amount of times any user has been banned for perpetual trolling. He may also have the record as the only person who successfully managed to troll his own thread. Best not to reply to him at all because as logical as you are, you will have more success trying to knock down a brick wall with a feather than have him understand anything you suggest. He catches all of us coming back as a new handle until he/she slips back into their old routine.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2021

So much to respond to in there lol

But ill just take that one sentence

"...there are no simple rule for them .."

Sure there is .

Take any major or minor triad and duplicate it a tone higher . ( now you have an extended chord )

It seems like the things you are saying are ONLY just a projection if the specific place you are at this moment on your own path of musical development.

Any amount of effort you put it on that area will answer these " questions " you have .

All these things you are saying are just an
" outsiders looking in " perspective.
It all vanishes once you develop past a beginner level of musical development.