Plays the Pink Panther theme noting the familiar missing avatar- Though it's not really tonal more chromatic ascension and descent and clever Big Band and Orchestral writing by Mancini

 

I'm sorry I should have explained a little more.

Primary theoretical discussions about elemental components are almost accepted by most musicians. The main problem is not in this case.

The main problem is how to use the constituent components in making music. The tradition of great German composers is our issue. The works of German composers, due to their very coherent form, are often of great interest to many teachers and authors of theoretical books and even theorists. The extraordinary cohesion in the works of these composers encourages theorists to reference their works. It defines, describes and expands music by inspiring the works of those German and Austrian composers.

Even if they examine the works of musicians from non-German countries, they still put the main reference to the works of German composers and examine non-German works alongside the works of German composers.

 

Granted but you do know that even if they examine German composers they reference the work of non-German composers too.
I love Bach and Mozart for their contributions to the art. Vivaldi who was Italian is also referenced alongside every one of them.
So as I mentioned, it is useful and more accurate to get the whole picture, not just part of it.

 

All right! 'Ditto.'

 

Last edited: Oct 21, 2021

I have no idea who that is, Freetobestolen cited they, I just cited Freetobestolen.

 

I see I may have sounded quite rude but I don't have really much patience or motivation to spend time expatiating about music theory here and I figured people would understand what I meant, but anyways, I meant that harmony in TONAL music (bear in mind the music system developed in certain parts of Europe during the XVII and XIX centuries) is a major rhetorical device, a significant model of expressing function in a tonal discourse. So when I say that melody can't exist in Tonal music without expressing harmony in some way I'm not saying the every tonal melody convey the traditional notes that compose traditional triads (namely, major, minor, aug and dim), and so on, but that every melody is developed, phrased under a major harmonic (functional) support (from which it can't escape, from which it is intrinsically bound as Tonal music is structured through harmonic functions). Because that's what differentiated Tonal music from the start, when the Camerata Fiorentina first announced the Second Pratica, from other contrapuntal arts back then.

And why I mentioned this? Because OP was interested in melody specifically in the context of tonal music so I thought it would be a good idea to remember him that understanding harmony played a major role in understanding melody in tonal music.

 

Last edited: Oct 21, 2021

So when you quoted that piece of electronic music, you weren't really answering to my challenge of finding TONAL pieces where the melody wasn't completely bound to it's harmonic foundation. Cuz, you know, that isn't tonal if we're being strict by the book. Or when my Tom Jobim colleague quoted those quartal structures, well...They're still delineating harmonic functions, and very simple diatonic ones.

So I hope that's somewhat cleared.

 

Alright then, so now you should explain which harmonic functions are being delineated, and why they are sounding simple and why perceived as diatonic once they're not...

 

I'll take the E major example: it's basically I - II - III - IV - V - IV - VII

points to consider:

1 - Every strong beat and (sub) strong beat is delineating basic triad notes, namely the fundamental and the third.
2 - Meter and rhythm play a huge part on how we perceive harmony, function and discourse, that's even why writers created a field of study called "harmonic rhythm", in traditional harmony strong beats are often associated with "chord tones" and composers will often play will our established perception of rhythm and harmony to create interesting effects and variety to their discourse (you can find relevant info here: Nonchord tone - Wikipedia)

Listen to me playing basically all the strong beat notes at once (harmonically), then listen to the original example and tell me if what I'm telling you makes sense

 

People don't message me that someone I have set to ignore is baiting me. I am not interested in charlatans that cannot play what they spout.

 

Well, that's not quite what I meant... and you've just played 6ths chords, which are only diatonic if you play the 6th as the bass note, considering "the rules"

 

No, I played triads, no 6th chords, no inversions, all regular diatonic chords based mainly on the notes placed in the strong and (sub) strong beats of the short piece you attached earlier.

 

Even though harmony by 5ths and 4ths aren't really common in traditional harmony (its one of the things that late XIX composers started to dig and that started to crack the once established and known understanding of harmony people had) it is, to some degree, explainable through the lens of many tonal harmony analytical systems (such as the traditional one, first developed by Rameau in the XVIII century) mainly through the tools I quoted earlier (non-chord tones, etc), however it would be quite out of character and inappropriate to resort to such old fashioned systems (in my opinion) as they don't correspond neither weren't created to analyse that type of music.

So it was a reach for me to analyse your examples using traditional tonal harmony as method but to my interpretation the use of traditional harmonic rhythm, phrasing and chord tones were noticeable (as they are, in the same fashion, on a big portion of the popular music worldwide, kinda like structural ancestral remnants of what once was tonal harmony) in that and so I ended up opting for using it.

 

Last edited: Oct 21, 2021

Unfortunately, theoretical discussions in forums go nowhere. I think the cause is pretty obvious.

Everyone has a passion for a particular style of music, and they've learned the techniques they need to make their favorite music, and they don't feel the need to pursue theoretical discussions in themselves. I don't want to discourage you, but the reality is:

Music style is more important than music theory itself for a lot of people.


I'll give you an example:

You consider a guitarist. This guitarist has spent a lot of time learning his instrument and learning a lot of styles. He tells himself why I need to spend time reading other people's comments. I'm taking my instrument and I'm starting to play it, it wants it to be based on theoretical principles or not. When I've learned to play guitar, then I need no additional theoretical discussions. I don't care if anyone criticizes me, because in the end, I know how to play and make my favorite music.


This attitude exists in many musicians and they engage in discussions with this view. In the end, that theoretical discussion doesn't work because these musicians familiar with the instrument consider themselves the god of music.

 

Sorry man! My bad! That comment wasn't for you. You're a good guy.

BTW, I know your interest in harmony, but my goal was to look at music generally and express a more holistic view. In any theory, there are a lot of examples of violations.

 

Never assume. I also know theory intimately and I can play everything I spout. People on here who know me in real life and what I have done know I am adept at both. Wherever possible, unlike some, I simply avoid using a diatribe full of a plethora of sanctimonious, tunnel-visioned, parroted rhetoric and speak plainly on a forum because it's not a lecture theatre. Music theory exists to explain music not the other way around, anyone who does not understand that is a fool. Without the performance of music to begin with, there is no theory that is common sense. Theory is designed to be put into practice, if it cannot be implemented then it is useless and no better than a mathematical formula that can never occur.

 

in rage...

 

I'd be more interested on your analisys regarding playing those quintal arpeggios/pentatonics over basic triadic chords... what harmonic functions they would acquire?

 

Is I said in my previous comment, the arpeggios can actually be explained through traditional harmonic analysis, tho (as I had previously said) that would be a bit of a reach when it comes to tonal music (at least in my opinion).