Of course not, and I never said that, but if the penalty must be more than the benefit of the crime as if it is less than the benefit, you can be sure they will go on, one way or another. And please dont bring politic into this, I'm simply doing a practical observation.

If they pay 20 euros of penalty for every 100 euros they got from criminal activity, they will never stop, obviously.

 

You don't want to ruin a company / Translator error / They don't want to ruin a company

This meant that the antitrust authorities did not want to ruin a company. Punishment is a must, but you don't want to destroy jobs.

This topic is already politics, then you have to delete the thread. I don't feel like having such a discussion.
How an antitrust authority pronounces the verdict and I am again banned from speaking because it becomes political.

I understand you Olymoon, the penalties should be, but we don't make the laws, we elect politicians who are the legislators every 4 years. What you can do is not buy anything from the companies concerned. In addition, it may be that because of the penalty, some things at Thomann for example, become more expensive because they allocate the cartel penalty to the sales prices. And please turn from observer to doer.
What should be done is not to cooperate with the criminals, but to convict them and, if possible, boycott them.
So Olymoon, make some constructive suggestions on how to change that. Many have an opinion, but only a few have influence.

Wikipedia says:
A competition regulator is the institution that oversees the functioning of the markets. And the Law in which it takes cognizance of situations having any type of impediments and distortions on the markets and correct them is the competition law (also known as anti-trust law). In general it is an government agency, typically a statutory authority, sometimes called an economic regulator, that regulates and enforces competition laws and may sometimes also enforce consumer protection laws. In addition to such agencies, there is often another body responsible for formulating competition policy.

Many nations implement competition laws, and there is general agreement on acceptable standards of behaviour. The degree to which countries enforce their competition policy varies substantially. Competition regulators may also regulate certain aspects of mergers and acquisitions and business alliances and regulate or prohibit cartels and monopolies. Other government agencies may have responsibilities in relation to aspects of competition law that affect companies (e.g., the registrar of companies). Regulators may form supranational or international alliances like the ECN (European Competition Network), the ICN (International Competition Network), and the OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development).

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_regulator

 

Last edited: Aug 7, 2021

I agree, and once acknowledging all that, my criticism goes to our music magazines doing such a shameful pile of shit sold out job.
Essentially they open marketing emails they receive during the day, Ctrl+c, Ctrl+v, and call it a day…

There is so much great normal journalistic work they could be doing with just a little effort. Our branch is practically a desert when it comes to scrutiny of any sort. We are totally left in the hands of the machinery.

 

Musikhaus Thomann (Burgebrach): sales, number of employees - Jukly 21, 2021

With a turnover of 982.8 million euros, Musikhaus Thomann is ranked 321 in the DDW ranking of “Top Family Businesses in Germany”.

Musikhaus Thomann in the ranking of the top family businesses:

- Company headquarters: Hans-Thomann-Str. 1, 96138 Burgebrach (Bavaria)
- Turnover: 982.8 million euros (2019)
- Founding year: 1954
- Number of employees: 1304
- Rank in the ranking of the top family businesses: 321
- Sector: mail order
- Segment: trade
- Owner family / s: Thomann
- Managing director: Mr. Hans Thomann

Family businesses such as Musikhaus Thomann represent the dynamic backbone of the German economy. The ranking by DDW Die Deutsche Wirtschaft records the highest-turnover representatives of the companies that have a significant influence on entrepreneurial families.

https://die-deutsche-wirtschaft.de/famu_top/musikhaus-thomann-burgebrach-umsatz-mitarbeiterzahl/

 

Last edited: Aug 8, 2021

I think you should cool down a tiny beat with your demands from other members here.
There is no need to lead this into an antagonistic path like you do.

Try to have a dialogue, instead of pushing all your “right answers” down our throats


.

 

You call people "such a shameful pile of shit"!

Then do something about it - do you have a few specific suggestions?

 

Last edited: Aug 7, 2021

Behringer comes to mind as an example

 

that’s an explosive, and very plausible statement
they have showed it’s possible to have a totally different range of prices.

just imagine the panic among the dragons even just thinking about loosing those kind of profit margins and adjusting them to something like behringer, just to name an example

 

Last edited: Aug 8, 2021

What does this all mean for us, the consumers. On one hand you could argue that the stores will now stop this practice, which will lead to less restricted competition and lower prices. But on the other hand now that they have such a hefty fine to pay to the German state, they will have to compensate by increasing the prices. So, ultimately there is no benefit for the end consumer. Right or wrong?

 

but from the article we could see it wasn't the stores that were pushing this.
it was the manufacturers even threatening the stores to keep prices up.and finally they all got caught.

and to the manufacturers these fines are just records on their accounts, these are not small operations we are talking about. so they were always "compensating" and will always "compensate", or rather do usury, because that is what it looks like at least


btw, wonder why they cared that much of the prices at the store, one would have thought that was not even their business since they already got their share or

.

 

wow, i thought those companies were legitimate, so i guess next time i buy a synth it will have to be a behringer.

 

I'm not an accountant, but it's possible 5M is pretty much pocket-money for Big companies like that..

The one who can be in more "trouble" is Fender, as it had some financial/liquidity issues not too long ago,
and pretty much like Gibson the company got degraded to an almost "toxic asset" level.. (iirc)

I guess smaller Distributors will have less expense overhead,
so they could lower the prices a little bit, undercutting the competence..

Although Big distributors like Thomann sell massive amounts,
and that could also give them the ability to cut prices.. or since they're buying larger quantities, get a better deal to begin with.


I guess companies like Yamaha, Roland or Fender want to sell to all distributors at fairly equal prices,
letting them have similar benefit percentages.. and that makes prices more homogeneous among distributors/stores,
creating an artificial kind of status quo..

This can be positive, and it's become more necessary in internet times,
where Physical shops and small distributors have to compete with Online shops, or chains like Thomann..

In fact quite often manufacturers will sell to physical shops at a slightly lower price,
just to let them compete with online retailers/distributors..
(for instance many physical shops don't carry AKG headphones for that reason..)

And that makes sense, and it's positive/necessary if we want to maintain the local shop culture,
so yeah it's complicated..


I don't know who's the real beneficiary, but in any case it's an artificial regulation/alteration of the market,
and that's illegal in the EU..

 

Last edited: Aug 7, 2021

in 2018 the investigations included searches and seizures.

 

How does this play into the Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) requirements that so many companies have in place for its dealers for most retail products?

 

Thomann joins GEWA Music (on the way to one billion in sales)
by Jochen Krisch on August 8, 2019

With 771 million euros (2017), Musikhaus Thomann is on the way to billions in sales and, according to the Cartel Office , now wants to acquire a stake in GEWA Music , which manufactures and sells musical instruments. In contrast to others, Thomann can largely finance its growth from cash flow and accumulated profits and is not dependent on loans.The annual surplus in 2016 and 2017 alone was EUR 48 million
and EUR 50 million, respectively. Thomann now does around 60% of its business abroad.

In a platform world, traders basically have four options. One of them is the increasing vertical integration,
be it in the product range, in logistics or in other areas of competence.

The 4 thrusts for retail in 2025

Foreseeable developments for the growth drivers in online retail:

- The big providers are becoming platform players
- The small ones develop marketplace strategies
- The specialists are unmistakable in the shopping experience
- and / or extend your value chain in-house
high innovation potential in all four dimensions

Thomann was probably trimmed these days when Etsy took over Reverb , an exchange for used musical instruments. Here, too, there is still a lot of market potential.

Source: https://excitingcommerce.de/2019/08...wa-music-ein-auf-dem-weg-zur-umsatzmilliarde/

 

Last edited: Aug 8, 2021

I've bought from Thomann, "Amazon", Ebay, Craigs List, and several other sites, and I think I like Thomann the best because they have the dependability of a large corporation but unlike the rest, I'm not afraid I won't be scammed, and also Thomann's whole focus is on music equipment so they tend to have more than enough of an assortment of goods, including their own brand of budget line cables, microphones, etc. I hope Thomann doesn't go away in otherwords get eaten up by Amazon.

 

I've only had good experiences with thomann. no matter if you had a question, it was answered, exchange - no problem,
even the broken key on the keyboard was quickly repaired. The defective memory of the Blofeld was quickly repaired.

 

Thomann brand = renamed Chinese stuff

 

then @Ŧยχøя it seems not to wild of a speculation to think that this phenomena with all mayor players force prices up all the way to us consumers may very well be one of the core reasons why small physical shops are totally disappearing

if giants like thomann was extorted and threatened to keep prices up, and then also joined the game, you can imagine what chance small chops have to deal with.. and as smaller units their only chance is to compete with low prices..

i agree totally, but then i think we should not put these two things against each-other, all companies involved do make money and huge amounts. their model should not include criminal strategies.

i mean we cant go around accepting illegal schemes just because they also provide the very core service they are there to provide.

ive heardfrom so called big "businessmen" say "sure, we speculate (rob), but we create jobs!". or police brutalizing members of the public and defending themselves with "but we arrest criminals too".

its an activity/job where they all make money, not a favor of any sort.


.

 

Last edited: Aug 8, 2021

Claim for damages - important, please read! File number: B11-33 / 19; B11-31 / 19

A notice

Persons who have suffered damage as a result of the violation can request compensation from those involved if the legal requirements are met. So much for the decisions are already legally binding, they have a binding effect according to § 33b GWB with regard to the determination of the violation.

Anyone who can make a claim for damages under Section 33a GWB credible has, under additional conditions, a right to the surrender of evidence and information under Section 33g GWB. The case report reflects the status on the day of publication and does not take into account any later events (court decisions, withdrawals of appeals).


Horizontal price fixing

In the course of the proceedings for vertical price fixing, there were indications of horizontal price agreements between the musical instrument dealers Thomann and Music Store. Between December 21, 2014 and April 27, 2018, they made agreements on price increases for individual musical instruments or supplementary products in thirteen cases, which, however, mostly only led to price changes for a short time.

a) Responsible representatives from Thomann and Music Store reached agreement on December 21st and 22nd, 2014 about price increases for the speakers Electro Voice ZLX 12P and Bose soundlink. The agreement was valid until March 23, 2015 at the latest.

b) Responsible representatives from Thomann and Music Store reached agreement on December 22, 2014 about price increases for the Electro Voice ELX215 loudspeaker. The agreement was valid until January 14, 2015 at the latest.

c) Responsible representatives from Thomann and Music Store reached agreement on January 10, 2015 about price increases for the Electro Voice ELX 118P loudspeaker. The agreement was valid until April 29, 2015 at the latest.

d) Responsible representatives from Thomann and Music Store reached agreement on January 11, 2015 regarding price increases, in any case with regard to the Electro Voice ELX 112P and ELX 115P loudspeakers. The agreement was valid until April 29, 2015 at the latest.

e) Responsible representatives from Thomann and Music Store reached agreement on February 6, 7 and 13, 2015 about price increases for the Hartke 410 TP, 115 TP and bass boxes 210 TP. The agreement was valid until July 1, 2015 at the latest.

f) Responsible representatives from Thomann and Music Store reached agreement on June 14, 2016 about price increases, in any case with regard to the guitars Gibson 2015 models Les Paul (LP) Classic HCS, LP Less + HCS, LP Traditional OB, LP Standard TSC, LP Standard 2015 WRC. The agreement was valid until July 20, 2016 at the latest.

g) Responsible representatives from Thomann and Music Store reached agreement on August 8th and 9th, 2016 regarding price increases, at least for the Behringer products Ultracoustic ACX 900, UT300, NU6000 iNuke, V5 Infinium Combo and PMP4000. The agreement was valid until June 19, 2017 at the latest.

h) Responsible representatives from Thomann and Music Store reached agreement on September 19, 2016 about price increases for the loudspeakers VS1520, VS1220 and VS 1220M from Behringer. The agreement was valid until November 23, 2016 at the latest.

i) Responsible representatives from Thomann and Music Store reached an agreement on January 9, 2017 about price increases for the Portable Stage Organ XK-5 from Hammond. The agreement was valid until May 3, 2017 at the latest.

j) Responsible representatives from Thomann and Music Store reached agreement on January 16, 17 and 24, 2017 on price increases, in any case with regard to the products RS410 Cover, Hall of Fame Reverb, Flashback Delay & Looper Pedal, Flashback X4, Ditto Looper, Ditto X2 Looper, Alter Ego X4 Vintage Echo, Ditto Stereo Looper, Arena Reverb, PolyTune and Wiretap Riff Recorder from TC Group (Behringer). The agreement was valid until June 26, 2017 at the latest.

k) Responsible representatives from Thomann and Music Store reached agreement on February 13, 2017 on price increases for the private label drum hardware products Millenium PD-222 Pro Bass Drum Pedal or Fame Double Pedal DFP9001, Millenium PD-222 Left Pro Bass Drum Pedal or Fame double pedal DFP9001L, Millenium SS-901X Snare Stand or Fame SDS9001 Snare Stand, Millenium SS-902 Pro Snare Stand or Fame Snare Stand SDS9002 and Millenium CB-901 Cymbal Stand or Fame Cymbal Stand CBS9000. The agreement was valid until July 1, 2020 at the latest.

l) Responsible representatives from Thomann and Music Store reached an agreement on August 17, 2017 about price increases for the guitar Fender Jimi Hendrix Monterey Stratocaster. The agreement was valid until September 20, 2017 at the latest.

m) Responsible representatives from Thomann and Music Store reached an agreement on April 3, 2018 about price increases for the Helix Guitar Processor from Line 6. The agreement was valid until April 27, 2018 at the latest.

https://www.bundeskartellamt.de/Sha...e/Kartellverbot/2021/B11-31-19_B11-33-19.html