Hey guys, How do you go about getting a good volume from a remixed track if you've had to turn the master down due to it going way over 0db, +7 in my case because the stems are already ridiculously loud. is it ok to be going over 0 when bouncing it down? I use Cubase if it helps.

Here's my predicament:

Stems are Really loud as if they've been mastered so I turn the master down.
I make track using theres and some of my own samples also,
I then bounce it and its tooo quite

if I try pushing the volume up with limiters etc will it just squash the hell out of the track because half the samples are aleady loud?

Hope you get what I mean here thanks, mike

 

Try dropping the volume of the stems themselves to a good level to work with from the beginning and match the things you've added to that volume so you don't have drop the volume at all on the master channel.

 

Yeah as was mentioned above. You need to turn down the volume of each individual stem by the same amount. So for example drop the volume of all the stems by 10 db and not the master channel. the master channel should stay at 0. The match the volume of your own samples with the stems. Use EQ on the stems if you need to so that they fit nicely with your added sounds. Just because they are already mastered does not mean that they don't need work. You need to do whatever it takes to make everything fir, even if it means EQing and compressing an already processed sound.

 

Ok cheers guys, I,ll give that a try. I guess it was getting the complete track back as loud as it was before which I was worried about.

 

As said already, just reduce the volume of everything. My 'default' project is a customised template. Every mixer track is -7dB from the get go. I just turn up the volume on my interface. No clipping/overs. Also you can edge UP whatever mixer tracks you need to as you go along.

 

I think ive sorted it now. and ive managed to get the volumes pretty high for the final track. it still feels a bit smashed/ squashed though. il upload the track tomoro for your thoughts maybe? cheers for the advise guys

 

Yeah please let us know when you upload it. I'll give you a detailed review of it and give you some good tips if it needs it

 

Just like Fuad I'd be happy to see if I can help you on your way with some pointers. Learning how to mix your tracks can be incredibly hard.

 

http://play.beatport.com/contests/black-sun-empire-noisia_hideous/527ca38bb8ed7414ccd37bce

Here's the song I uploaded to beatport. you can see by the wave form its ridiculously squashed. It felt like by reducing the volume of the stems to stop clipping, once I had the song ready and pushed the levels back up it was ridiculously loud.

With the final piece i now bounced the song out with the master channel peaking just under 0. No limiting

I then bounced it out and opened in another track. i then added a chain of a few eq's to boost the low and high end a little. No more than a few db. and a limiter last in the chain to tame it a little. The limiter was doing around 3-4db reduction. How the waveform is now i was getting around 9.0 rms in volume levels

Hope that makes sense

 

I think limiting your master channel by 3 / 4 db is still quite a lot and may not be needed if you free up some space in the dynamic range if you start with treating the bass and synth with eq to take out the non audible frequencies. from about 1.05 you can see the waveform growing till it squashes and the music feels less loud. It's a bit hard to see bij the waveform because you can't really zoom in on the website.

By removing stuff you don't hear (mostly low end) you can free up space to let the sounds that do matter do their thing. I find it hard to explain any other way. Maybe fuad can help out?

 

Yeah it does seem a lot. especially as I am only pulling the threshold down by 0.5. The rest of the plugins do push the volume right up though. Do you guys when using a plugin chain tend to make sure each plugin isn't clipping as you go or do you just make sure the final output isn't clipping.

This project has really frazzled my brain when it comes to mixing down. It just feels like because ive turned down a bunch of heavy processed stems that when it comes to getting the track back loud its distorting. And the sounds ive produced myself have also been prcessed to match. But I cant leave them clipping.

When I play the original track as a whole im already hitting +5db over 0, hense needing the limiter otherwise I pull the volume down and were too quite again.

Is there anyway I can send you the waveform?

Thanks, mike

 

Everyone has their own approach of course but what works for me is to keep all my levels under -6 db on all tracks just to be safe. Turning up the levels later on at the master channel doesn't damage the signal where limiting and compressing to reduce gain does.

That could have something to do with how the levels are measured. a 5db peak or +5 RMS are totally different things. I've noticed a lot of tracks in electronic music exceed the 0DB line but only with peaks. I don;t have enough knowledge to give a clear explanation on this matter

If you upload the track somewhere we can download it I can have a look at it on my own computer. Maybe you can upload a version without any plugins on your master channel and with the master gain at 0db ? that's a good way to compare

 

Ok i'l do that. Il upload it as a private track later to soundcloud and send you the link.

Il take everything off the master channel and Il leave the master at 0.

Cheers

 

Hmm that upload on Beatport is without a mastering chain on it? Waveform looks like you have used a brickwall limiter and cranked the shit out of it

If your DAW Project was @ 32Bit float + the input gain is clipping the waveform would look similar to that one on beatport.
So i would try to correct the issue "pre-Fader" by reducing the "Input Gain" ,not only the Fader Volume... "post-Fader" where the problem would already be unfixable.
so in your case every stem channel input gain by reduced -7 will do the job. mention that it is important to fix this one the input channel because if you only reduce the volume at the mixer fader the digital clipping already has happend.

hopefully u get my explanation right.. i´m no native english speaker so sorry for that...

 

Yeah the file on beatport looks terrible. you can see a slightly better version here on my soundcloud www.soundcloud.com/mikelampitt.

There is a mastering chain on it yes. consisting of 3 eqs, a tape/tube emu and then a limiter at the end which is waves l3, which I think is a brickwall limiter yes. I have only applied 0.5 to the threshold but its doing at least 3-4 gain reduction maybe more il have to check.

im running Cubase at 24bit 44100, and on the actual mixdown I had all the levels under odb on every channel and also on the master bus. The problem came when I loaded the audio file in a new project to do a bit of minor/rookie mastering the channel with the eqs was peaking well over 0db and i put the limiter on the master out to control the level.

when i reduced the volume on the audio channel with the eqs it was all too quite, and using a limiter to then to boost the levels just caused distortion.

What kind of level in rms for a final version does everyone tend to aim for when mixing in the box so to speak? i normally try for around 8.5-9.5 is this my problem? im aiming too high here?

 

EDIT:
here you go, try it that way..maybe thats all you need to fix it..
regulate the input gain of your stems and then go in mixdown like normal

to the RMS question... in your case (electronic music) maybe fuad&co can anwnser that question a lot better than me.

peace

 

I think n12n0 has a good point with the input gain settings. I never used cubase myself so I'm not familiar with all of it's functions but your main goal is dropping the levels at the beginning of the project. Usually remix stems are at a mixdown level which means a clean signal at a low level ( far below 0db) so I first thought maybe some mixer setting caused the high gains for you.

But I was curious so I downloaded the parts myself from beatport and check them out. For some reason these stems are REALLY loud. a few go above the 0db line a little but the sub + drum tracks are actually clipping. The clipped peaks are even visible when you zoom in on them which isn't good to work with.

I don't think there's a correct answer or solution which can be backed up by science for this situation. But I can tell you how I would approach this project myself.

Usually with stems I wouldn't touch the (input)gain but with these I would drop the input by -9 to -12 on all stem tracks. And match the volumes of everything you add yourself to that. Then export our mixdown without any eq or limiters on the master channel. Make sure that level is a few db below 0 also. If not; drop the inputs of al channels. Worry about loudness when mastering. You need the space below 0db to make the final version loud and dynamic.

View attachment levels.tiff

 

Thanks for that mate, i didnt realise i could adjust the gain there. I think its time i learned my DAW a little better. I also think that my problem here has been my approach to the mixing side of it from the very start. i should have got all the levels right and sorted it in the beginning. I think for the next one i do i'l go into it a little more organised.

I still welcome anymore tips or info on the current mix, i need some major criticism here

cheers, mike

 

Thanks Arthur, i must have been replying before yours was posted. I'm glad you thought the stems were a bit strange aswell, that does make me feel better

Next time i'l do what all you guys seem to be suggesting and sort all the levels first. Wheather it needs to be done on the input or not. Thanks for taking your time to go through it. Im looking forward to doing a few more of these just for a little practice. I do enjoy the technical side of mixing just as much as the composing.

Cheers again, mike

 

underlying the assumption that the guys u got the stems from know what they are doing.. they maybe wanted the stems with that gain stages.
If they had send their stems to an analog summer/mixer whatever the distorsion they getting "could" be wanted and "can" sound very nice.. but it´s very important you know what you are want to achieve from it.

percusive elements like Kicks, snairs or even baselines or synths sometimes sound great with a bit distorsion on it. (personally i would try to achive this through a parallel bus channel and sum the distorted signal to the original but this is the parting of the ways, there´s no right or wrong way)
But if you want to do it completely "in the box" .. you have to do it a whole other way to achieve the same result by keeping your dynamics and stay away from clipping you don´t like to hear..

first of all (in this particular case) i would recommend a project with 32bit float. (if your stems are in 24bit wave simply don´t care cubase will ask you if it shall convert it to the project bit range and cubase is doing that job very well..) you can change your project setting under (who'da thunk it?^^)PROJECT/SETTING/32BitFloat.It´s also important that you do that BEFORE the stems were added into the project.at 2nd i would fix the input gain like explained above. If you want to achieve that crispy sound you can put a channel strip on the channel and play with the "drive", or you can use a saturation plugin, or use a tape vst.. there are so much ways and there is no wrong or right.. you have to like the result. sometimes it´s that simple..

little hint : try to use a plugin like http://www.toneprojects.com/products/plug-ins/basslane/ (free) on your mastering chain, maybe before the dithering or before limiting (trial and failse) and set everything below 250-300 to mono.. your lowend will appreciate..