Hello everyone, I have minor question about mastering stage. I'm using room-headphone correction software for better mixing results. But they intend to correct every frequency to be as flat as possible. And I'm getting clear but a bit brighter mixes. It's well balanced but much more brighter when i compare my re-mixes with original released ones.

I'm starting to think smoothly roll of some high frequencies. I do not have any idea and reason to do that. Maybe it's all about codec problem (higher frequencies might be cut off during converting to another audio format etc.).

I'd be appreciated any guidence about this topic.


This is the original song, Better way by Benjamin John:

And this is my version (I've got the multitracks from cambridge-mt.com)

https://vocaroo.com/1lt3rdpxOfHI


Is there any possibility about doing that cutting high frequency thing for getting more loudness?

 

First of all. Only do what you know in the mixing/mastering. Actually f that, in general. This "minor" question highly implies that you don't know what you are doing. So don't. I'm not sure why you are even using "room-headphone" correction software that flattens every frequency. That is not how hearing works, nor the headphones themselves. If you are using sonarworks or similar software for mixing/mastering or any kind of listening really, I would highly recommend you uninstall it this very moment. I don't want to sound like an ass, but please, don't be a racoon controlling the mothership, man. Know what you are doing without a need for asking in forums about mastering. Go read a book about mixing and mastering, there are plenty of them on sister site, I'm reading one on mastering too. If reading is not an option there is probably tens of thousands of good mixing/mastering videos on youtube for free. To actually answer your question. No. High cut is not a thing in mastering, unless it's for vinyl, which should actually be done in sound design/mixing for cleaner master if need be. Cutting low frequencies is never a thing in master unless there is no other option. You can answer yourself to those questions by what I just said before or even better, running an experiment by yourself. Hope this long rant somehow helped you, really don't mean to be rude. If you are really interested in making loud mixes clean I would highly encourage to look how skrillex does it. He can push -6 lufs without any membrane distortion (on mixcubes or something similar). Which is actually insane. No other music that I tested can do that even in -8 -9 lufs range. Hope this helps and do remember to attach a rope before jumping to a rabbit hole.

 

You can't be sure about any mixing decision without proper sounding monitors and basic room treatment. Get a pair of decent monitors (I'd say at least Yamaha HS5) and reliable headphones like Audio-Technica ATH-M50x, apply some acoustic treatment (if you don't listen/mix at very high volumes then very basic room treatment will do) and proceed with your mixing and mastering. If you do that you'll find that most of the times you know what to do with your mix intuitively, just by hearing and comparing, without any mumbo-jumbo.

I wouldn't rely on headphones correction software. As bear on fridge mentioned, this is not how hearing works, so I think it's better to get used to your monitors/headphones sound than to flatten frequency response using third party software.

Cheers!

 

Okay. So I took your master vs original for a spin of critical listening. First of all, they are in ballpark of loudness ~-13.9 lufs, original ~-13.3. I'll just spit out what I found good and bad in your mix and in original and I hope you can build from that. Your mix is brighter, more in front. For vocals to sit in front is a good thing and 100x times more so in this kind of genre. So you would have that going for you if you would remove that weird eq on vocals. Rest is too much in front. Shakers should be way way down in level, I prefer original on that. Original utilizes stereo placement just right, yours sound like a mono mix compared. You traded low end with vocals, which is not a right thing to do. In original the low end muffles the vocals, so it could have been done better. In your case you just don't have low end. That is most apparent in Chorus.
I wouldn't even go into mastering conversation at this point, because I would say this mix is only 30% ready, so I would rather spend time on mix until it is at least 110% good to go. That means that you listened on every god damn speaker you have and you know them. That you know them like a book you wrote. And it doesn't have to be a 500$+ speaker a pair.
So here I come to my next point. You can do what horriblemind said and get 50x, decent speakers and sub, make room adjustments so that frequency response curve doesn't look like a roller-coaster park. Or you can go completely opposite direction. Get a best pair of headphones you can buy and buy a shitty speaker. Like a mixcube or something similar, that translates to real world very well and get intimate with those speakers and headphones. That's what I've chose to do with ~2k budget, and it comes very close to the studio sound I got fairly familiar with, which comes closer to ~7k - ~8k budget for sound reproduction and acoustic treatment (by that I mean I get reliable results and I know that what I do on my setup will reflect in the studio and in a real world, like shitty earbuds, smartphone, laptop, car etc.). Of course I get less soundstage, immersion, etc. but I trade it with portability if need be, availability to work from home, lower cost, etc. To finish this rant with my cup of coffee, I think you did a great job with what you have and keep improving no matter what!

 

I guess regarding headphone correction tools there are varying opinions. What is important here: either you mix always with the headphone correction setting on or never. Your ears need to get used to the way your headphones sound (either with the correction on or off, not both, since this will be too confusing for the brain). Of course, if you switch between headphones and studio speakers, you need to turn off the headphone correction when listening back with the studio speakers.

And as previous poster has said: try to listen back to the mix you've done on as many different speakers as you can before committing to it. Listen to it on your phone, car's speakers, hifi speakers etcetera. Take notes what is lacking compared to commercial records. Ideally get a reference track of the same genre to compare your mix with. After you identified shortcomings, go back to the mixing board and fix those issues. Beginners tend to "overmix" (use more processing than actually needed to achieve the final goal).

Take breaks, you don't have to finish the mix in one day. Maybe one day premix with breaks in between. Next day listen to what you've done on various playback devices, take notes and then fix issues and do the final mix.

 

No problem with codec here, what youtube conversion cut is not something that you can hear that clearly, and no matter the situation, if the mix sounds better on youtube than on a different wav version, then that's the wav version that go a problem (youtube doesn't make anyhing sound better), so the problem is in your mix, like bear on fridge said.

In mastering stage, you shouldn't have to do such hard equing, especially when you are doing the mix too. I will not blame you listening system here cause I don't know what you using, but if you only earing a difference in the high frequency between your mix and the original version, then maybe you should spend more time training your ear (on your system with or without the room response, the point is to being able to hear the real difference).

With a more balance mix and a good stereo placement you'll hear the difference already. This type of training is good excercice but you first need to know your listening environnement before starting to work. And use the reference track at every step of the mix, volume first, then EQ/compression (if the stem you got are really rough) then panning/stereo placement. If your mix is good, then you'll need just a limiter to do it (and every other stuff you want to give a color, but not to fix things). If not, then go back to the mix

 

100%

 

I won't say it's an excess of brightness, but a lack of Warmth..

What processes/tools/fx do you use on each instrument?
At which freqs are you cutting/filtering?

What's on your Mastering Chain?

You must be cutting the Mid and Low frequencies a lot with any of the processes,
because the difference is considerable.. sounds to me like you are choking it somehow..


However, if it's not something you are taking out/substractng..

There's a myriad ways in which you could gain more warmth,
but something like Waves MaxxBass, or just a basic EQ on that Bass could be benefitial (if done with care)..

On the rest of the instruments will be more delicate..


-As far as learning Mastering goes, there's only two things you can do: RTFM and Practice..

I've learned a LOT from reading manuals like Izotope, Waves, DMG, Fabfilter Manuals..
I cannot even enumerate them because I must have read hundreds in the last 10 years.

But yeah, manuals are Gold.
(sometimes)

Reading some articles by reputed audio/master engineers, or forum discussions can give you nice clues/info sometimes..
or the occasional Youtube video..

But this takes a lot more time in the end than just RTFMs and Practice with the tools you have/can get.

In the end tho, nothing replaces Good Thinking.

Understand the stuff,
think on what you need and how you will achieve it.. and just do it!

 

Last edited: Jul 29, 2021

I don't have any advice. I like it though and sounds clean and better than mines on the high end. Amazings. May I ask what kind of Cans you're using with the headphone-room autocorrect? Do you have any flat sounding monitors to compare the two?

 

i agree with Tuxor. sounds thin. the problem is in the mids, specifically the low mids. even up to the mid mids (~1.5k in my books), which will help solidfy the image and as a bonus will increase perception of loudness -- if that is what you want. if there seems like there is a problem it is usually in the mids. play with that balance. probably only a couple of db or so.

to my ear -- bass, upper mid, treble are fine, level wise. cutting tops would be a mistake IMO, because you will be chasing your own tail and lose air in the process. when you boost the low mids you will mask the brittleness at the top and add weight to support the treble elements without sounding unnatural. frequency masking is not always a negative effect. balance.

maybe something on the treble element tracks need to be cleaned up lower down, noise in the upper parts of bass tracks, a compressor or another treatment are flattening things out and you need more pre-emphasis or you have cut too much to deal with a problem and not added enough back. i don't know.

when you have the balance right you could even experiment with more sub and air. maybe not for this particular track. it is a pretty sweet tune so a little sugar on top would not hurt. just not disconnected brittleness -- unless that is what you want (i can't imagine why tho).

i don't mind the exposed 'upfrontedness' (sic.) of some of the treble elements that some people have complained about, as long as they are somewhat sonorous. it is a creative choice none the less. adds 'signs of life'. there is sometimes an imperative by some people to kill every thing by gelling things into a monotonous block of boredom.

don't worry about the equipment, calibration, and all that rubbish. even on a cheap pair of half-decent speakers the problem is very apparent. sometimes it is just hard to maintain objectivity. it happens to everyone. human perception through the senses is incredibly imprecise. step away, reset and become your own worst critic. get some good reference and learn what things are suppose to sound like, irregardless of the equipment, if you don't know already. not always perfect, but close enough. nothing is perfect anyway. the thing is -- knowing (and loving) your equipment, even if it is a pile of crap. [also works with family members, husbands and wives, friends, etc.] you can not buy your way into empirical knowledge, just constant mindful application.

if you can't be bothered with all that dicking around, just turn everything up to 10 and call it a day -- that usually does the trick;)

hopefully you can understand this. i am not a particularly technical person when it comes to music. just a filthy instrumentalist. if you were born in the current century -- instruments are those stupid looking things with metal, wood, strings, resonant cavities and stuff. quite disgusting things really, try to keep away from them if possible. definitely do not hang around with people who play with them.

 

Thank you for your kind answer. It was not rude at all. I will remember your advices on further projects!

I'm stucked with samson sr850 atm

Unfortunately i'm hearing songs with only low budget headphone atm. I will try to reach out for low or mid range studio to mix one song with decent monitors and decent enviroment. I think it'd be help. I will bear in my mind to 50x's within the price range. than i will move for monitors i guess.

I was using sonarworks + can opener, than i switched to realphones now. I'm trying both of 'em. They sound very different compared without any correction on my cans. And i will try to listen in another systems asap.

probably it's all about my mix. I will do it all over again.

yeah, i think i cut too much low frequencies (even mid frequencies). I am using tape emulation on the mastering stage (even slate mixbus virtual channel + tape emulation + oxford inflator sometimes) but they cant give some warmth when there are no warm frequencies around here right? it's all about my filtering habit i guess.

samson sr850 as headphone realphones as correction vst.

i got some .ogg files from my hero andy wallace. i got some avenged sevenfold songs and smells like teen spirit as .ogg (seperate channels like kick, snare, bass, guitars, vocal etc.) files. I can observe how he approached songs. using seperate channels that released from a pro guys as a reference track is like reference+ tracks for guidence. But something wrong that i do. They are similar but not same quality and taste. idk why.

 

your mix is not really that far off the mark. just lacks body. just listen to a song that you like, and is a similar genre and focus on the meat of the sound and balance that out in your mix. if you do that enough times, over a long span of time, your ears will remember. if you do it all day every day you would not even have to think about it.

it is a part of the learning process, which never ends. everyone makes mistakes all the time, they just become less and less as one gains experience in a particular skill. anything worth doing is difficult, things that are easy have little value.

maintaining objectivity and a distance from the work is as useful a skill as some of the more specifically technical aspects. it helps maintain a clearer picture of what is trying to be achieved.

it is good to analyze things that you are drawn to, at some point you have to adapt what you find valuable to your workflow and your unique perspective. i think this is ultimately where people will find value in your work. comparing yourself to people who have been doing something for many years can be a big mistake.

some projects will seem very easy and some extremely difficult just because of the subjective nature of the work. both are valid learning experiences. ultimately it is about enriching your life through activities that interest you, and you enjoy doing.

 

it makes sense now. but giving a body is so dangerous. There is a thin line between warm and muffled. How do you keep balance on mid range? multiband compressor?

 

that is a very broad question. of course there are many different answers depending on what musical elements you have to work with. in this specific case the quickest fix would be a static eq across the main buss. find a curve that does not bring up the bass, high mid and treble too much. an eq at this level of the mix is very powerful so it does not take very much to change things radically. it is probably not a satisfying solution and not be looked on as technically best practice. technical people would frown on the practice, but they have probably done it at some point. it is ok to do it, just don't let anyone see you doing it.

i am not a mixer, so i can not offer any deep technical advice. there were not really any 'mixers' as such when i started in music. i could operate a mute button or a fader like a pro though. some engineers even recorded tracks a the relative end levels so they would just push the faders up to unity and that was essentially the mix.

on an individual track or sub buss level, which is a more technically correct solution. the problem is usually the opposite. there is usually too much build up in in those areas. i do not know what you have specifically done. i offered a few possible answers in a previous comments. essentially you have taken away too much of something either level wise or frequency wise, maybe there is phase issues as well. it is ok to leave some things in just to add thickness. only get rid of the papery or boxy stuff, resonances, things that wobble the phase or noise floor stuff -- stuff that sounds bad. some of those things can affect everything and need to be isolated and managed.

i can remember a tambourine track that was making an entire mix sound off. took a long time to finally realize it was that track and high pass the crud that was down low and somehow throwing everything off. just that particular track in that particular mix, in another session it may not have been a problem. things can be funny like that. it does point out how everything affects everything else when you have multiple elements interacting in music.

as i have said a few times -- knowing what things should sound like is most of the problem. getting there is the fun part.

 

it's still the best solution i guess. riding a fader is first and the best solution most of time. Thank you for your help, i will try simpler solutions like phase relationship and fader stuff asap.

 

sorry but thats bs. everything is always a thing if it helps the product at the end. also speaker correction is essential for everyone who cannot afford a 10k+ usd treated room.
the only thing is that flat headphones dont sound the same as flat speakers, google for harman curve.

 

also pretty much every master has both low and highcut :D

 

You can add both Baxandall style EQ (high- and low shelving boost/attenuation) as well as low- and high cut during the mastering stage. I do it all the time. That's part of the QC as a mastering engineer.
You don't really "gain loudness" on doing so. There is much more energy in the low-end to take care of, as well as pushing the mids where we are more sensitive, in order to up percieved loudness.

 

Last edited: Aug 2, 2021

low cut, soft clipper, done

 

I just mixed another artist, this time i just tried to keep body while i trying eliminating murkiness. But 1 raw vocal channel is not enough! only one vocal channel and no harmony or no octaves at all! So i used pitchshifter and lowered a bit for richer and fuller sound. I think this is the only way to get a solid body without boosting 1 channel with pultec for nothing. I think i got your point but all i need is dig out some new paths with creativity. Thank you for your advices!

https://vocaroo.com/1l6WGpxrItOc This is the new song i'm working on (not finished at all. Be careful it is loud as far as -9 to -10 LUFS)