That speaks volumes to me, so who am I to say if you should or not chase this "knowledge" my brother? Please avoid taking anything I have written here as such.

The way I see, the Creator bestowed us with music, so we may limitedly and tacitly spell syllables of His sacred infinite name, and such vehicle alone justify our existence whilst putting us in connection to Him. That humbles me to the core, makes me a believer to seek out for more, even though knowing beforehand that's all I can do.

Thanks for sharing.

 

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I have, time and again, tried to learn music theory but for some reason I always get stuck at a basic level and quit for a while, then start again, then quit again etc. I wish it were otherwise, I've been playing for most of my life yet I still don't know what the heck I'm doing, it would be nice to finally crack the code lol.

 

Well, that only means you're human after all, such as myself and most of the others attending to this thread - of course, some self-entitled deities show up as well, but that's to be expected.

If you feel like it, point me in a direction so we may start from somewhere. Let's do it gradually and steadily so others may follow and also contribute.

 

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I admit I have nothing to say.

 

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My problem is, information gets in, hangs around for a short while, then gets out, leaving only a faint echo of itself behind. Coincidentally, I think free jazz is the best thing ever.

 

Not once but recurently I have to come back to the reasons I first started this thread. Isn't that clear already?
Those to join it, or don't, do it based on their own particular reasons I presume. Are you their spokesperson?
Sharing and discussing musical perspectives isn't pertinent enough for an Education section from an Audio oriented site according to you?
By doing so am I infringing any rules or offending someone?
Btw, what makes you think I'm limiting the content to Jazz?

 

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I have even less to say.

 

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No. Nothing you do can be described as possessing a quality remotely like clarity.

Perhaps a sentence containing: "...could you better elaborate on that one?.." would make a whole lot of difference.

Those who join in primarily are here to doubt you, correct you or berate you. There are now 9 pages confirming it.

If you've actually read the 9 pages, the berating and doubting are pretty much clear, by certain individuals. Otoh, the expect corrections over my proposition or the traded perspectives are yet to be found, given that only the first 2 (berate an doubt) prevail over anything I may say.

I will say sorry the minute somebody claims to have improved their music thanks to you and shows proof of it.

Would that chance ever come to be in your experience? Meaning, start putting forth to the subject which titles the thread.
What sorries would accomplish and what makes you think that's what I'd expect from you?

No. Nor would I be if I harped on about Gregorian Chants page after page and how the members here would benefit from it's example. But I'd become quite a bore fairly soon. There's a hint there for you. Try starting another topic where you talk about other aspects of music. Different genres and the role their instruments play for example. Tell us about the origins of the electric guitar in blues. You should be able to do this if you possess a broad knowledge of music.

Ok, no problem. I will take that in consideration.

 

This is actually a category issue on the part of AS. Anyone who has made a career and bought a house out of performance and education knows that theory is only one part of music education and worthless if it cannot be shown how to be put into practice.
AS needs to do a sub-category called THEORY which is where this belongs. Also like me as fellow associates know and have PM'd, this person is not a paid University educator. Intelligent but he's no PhD. At least he would only have people who want to look at pages of grandiose waffling and professionals would stay away. Incredible that some people do not get that if every person in the world did this, nobody would know how to play anything. This means? Audible performed human music would cease to exist and the world would be full of analysts who cannot play or at best, be full of crap performers who have to use a computer to play their theories. What made Jacob Collier famous was what he did with tunes people already knew. If all he did was post what the T.A does nobody would have ever heard of him. The performances got him notoreity not the theory on youtube. That came after. Anyone with a brain can follow a Collier timeline and see that's exactly what happened. Nobody gets millions of viewers on theory videos, only on performance.

 

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1/About "Inutil Paisagem",
I agree the final A79#11 can be seen as the tritone sub of Eb7,
although in this context I think it works more as a modulation rather than a sub..
A modulation In the context of an ending ???
2/The Eb tonality is the tonality of "Smile" sung by Barbara Streisand . I clearly
3/ Be attentive, it will prevent you from being ridiculous : Read , understand , listen, and then comment about what is being said .
4/ One more thing : Do not talk about stuff that you do not know, about chords of inutil paisagem for example: "it's more of an Ab tonality (A in the score), but it modulates a lot and very chromatically".
No it does not "modulate" ! It can be analysed all as "functional harmony" , (except for the second chord of the tune) secondary and extended dominant, also some modal interchange chord (sub dominant minor mes 7 and 8). Modulation means a change of key or tonal center, modulation is not identified by the use of chromatic chords in a given tonality. Just learn about "secondary dominants" (and their respective sub V), modal interchange (mostly from sub dominant minor family). Those chords are found in countless standards that uses "functional harmony". Those chords and their use are so ubiquitous in music that musicians with good ear recognise them "on the spot". Recognising chord progressions on the spot is a skill that most good jazzmen share. Nothing miraculous, it is just that some common chord progressions and patterns are recognised by the ear. You, and others in this thread have the opportunity to learn from Bassdude that is a world class musician that really knows his craft, and from myself because i have been playing (also teaching) for 40 years and i know where my limits are, I never talk about stuff i do not understand. I will not talk about "post bop harmony", or "non functional harmony" because i can not play in this idiom. But here is a place where ignorant clowns come and give fake news about music theory, and say whatever bullshit. So one thing for you guys : stay in your own poo ! You can not hear, you can not play, you pretend to know but you are just pretending and showing how pretentious and miserable you are, poor clowns that spread fake news.

 

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You are ignorant and deaf little clown . Clown says : The reason is simple, you listen C7(b13) as a C7, I instead do it as E7(#9)(b9) . Well , you could also "listen" (usually musicians say "hear it as) C7(b13) as a Fmaj 7, an B7, an Bb7, a Gmaj 7, an apple pie, a cup of coffee,the noise of a space ship, whatever.

 

1 The moment your tritone substitution modifies the over-lining harmony,
it becomes more of a chromatic modulation than a sub.
And that's what's happening all the time in this track, regardless.

3 My advice would be: Save your pathetic lessons for your mother..

 

My "pathetic lessons" ? Not "My" lessons. Just common analysis shared by musicians and teachers around the world. I get gigs, and teaching in real life world with this "pathetic lessons". Do not take your pathetic case and ignorance for general practice.
Learn, then you speak . I gave you insights, go and check out , it is full of this kind of information all over. But considering the way you express yourself, i guess that even with the best teacher in the world you would still not understand and HEAR nothing. One more thing : in front of me talking about my mother would have give you a free holiday of some month in the hospital of your choice. But it is not possible, so i just leave you with your broken ears, they are broken already so i don't need to smash them. Damage is already done, no reverse. Bye little deaf clown, now this discussion does not have anything to do with the subject anymore, limit has been reached and continuing in this way will just make the mods come in and stop the game.

 

Something a seasoned analyst and a seasoned performer knows intuitively as a construct of harmony and scale theory for methodology is voice leading.

Some of the best award-winning authors on famous musicians, tunes and music in our world, completely understood that any substitution was not necessarily constituted by what seemed to be on the surface. The voice leading aspect is very often the reason for a composer's choice and this has not even been remotely mentioned as a core reason for choosing ANY harmony structure, or for that matter as you and @george31 have pointed out differently and several times. Even in popular tunes you can look at older famous tunes by Bacharach, Quincy Jones etc etc. Russell Garcia also included an entire page in his books on 'surprise modulations'. Every notable arranger and composer I have met or read their works clearly states the importance of voice-leading. These same books are also mandatory study in some Universities. Some of the best harmony books out there e.g. Andy Jaffe say the same thing. That said, those works are ALL designed to be played and not just read after absorption.

It's cool to modify anything, as long as it has a musical purpose. The key word is musical. Anyone can be smart and do any number of mII/V subs or dom7 tritones which can also be chromatic by changing the bass note so on and so forth. The purpose, the musicality is everything and more often than not, the voice leading is a huge reason why a composer chose to substitute or change any part of the structure. This has not been mentioned. I thought I'd sit back and see how much the T.A. did not know and it's a lot because that's entry-level orchestration.

So yes I agree with both of you.

 

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What can I say, some ppl seem to have more Ego Problems than other..

It's alright if we discuss Harmonic topics and agree/disagree,
I appreciate the ideas you brought on the table, and then merely gave my point of view..

But that cocky/pretentious attitude of wanting to give moral/conductual lessons is a bit out the line.

Please spare our lives, oh all mighty George!

If you were so sure about yourself,
you wont need to be pushing your supposed 40 years as player and teacher out of nothing.

I've been a musician only half as long,
but it seems I've reached much higher Professional success..

But I'm not here to push my CV.. lol
I know what I know, I do what I do,
and it's pointless to use that as a throwing weapon.

Move on.

 

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1 The moment your tritone substitution modifies the over-lining harmony,
it becomes more of a chromatic modulation than a sub.
And that's what's happening all the time in this track, regardless.

1 : I was talking about subV about the last chord, which do not resolve, once again : READ !
2 : "And that's what's happening all the time in this track" : No that is not what is happening the whole time with this track !
(Just learn about secondary dominant chords and sub dominant minor chord family.)
Or just think (i know this is beyond your abilities, but give it a try) about "rythm changes" and their countless variations, or blues changes and their countless variations. Perfect examples of how chords substitutions can be used without implying modulation.
Real life music and experience once more....
Reverse to that is a tune like all the things you are , that IS traveling through different keys by modulating. Ex first 8 bars are repeated a fifth higher. But this first phrase also modulates bars 6-8. so in the first 16 measures we travel through four keys. I will not waste my time to analyse in details the chord progession of "inutil paisagem" for you because you do not deserve it. I could give free lessons to sme talented youg people wishing to learn and improve, but for a person like you i should take 200 $ an hour.

 

Big difference : i am not sure about "myself" . I am sure about knowledge of what is commonly admitted and taught all over.
You bring things on personal level, i give concrete examples , move on !

 

Bassdude, you are right, but please before saying "i agree with both of you" , just see the phrases in their context : "harmony of Inutil Paisagem".I do not think that you would agree about the fact that this tune modulates... Any how i was giving examples about modulations with the ATTYA example. And chromatic harmony without modulation with Rythm changes and blues changes..

 

I was clear the modulating is good if it is musical, intended and is based on the voice-leading. Nothing more. Which is why I focused on that


It's fairly straight-ahead. Yes. Agreed it is not uncommon to hear chromatic implications in Rhythm changes or the blues, especially in the bass. It is also not uncommon to substitute in a blues either, Trane and Parker did it a lot in their tunes.

 

I know Bassdude, i know what you mean and, and what you was talking about . Just pointed the context because one dude might think that his analysis was OK.