so when you call yourself an engineer in germany you have really a long and in most cases not so easy education behind you and in case of audio its really not for everyone . i think most here dont even touch this level and the most here which have really good knowledge and skills are like they called here tone-technicians - a tone engineer is way above a tone technician - so here comes the question :
why they are call themself's engineers in english even if they poorest autodidact with questionable education an so on ?

 

Because it comes from a latin word that means "ingenuity" or "wit", so as long as the person has the ability to solve problems, high education isn't a requirement. Sure, when you hear the word engineer you think of lots of knowledge and hard work and to be fair it's usually related, but that's not really what it means.

Now technicians and engineers are not necessarily more or less educated or skilled than the other, even though formal education might tell you otherwise. When it comes to the word, they are just different roles.

 

I'd imagine the same reason as in the field of computing people are called "software engineer" or "systems engineer", even though formal training for these doesn't exist really. I've had both as my title even though my education is "computer science" which also is odd since it's an offshoot of mathematics, but like engineering it's also applied mathematics. Nothing to do with science.

 

Even in I.T. in the earliest Certification exams for non-institutional certification for a major company like Cisco, Microsoft or Novell, you had a minimum of seven 1-3 hour exams. Many more now and the study books are substantially bigger. You had to pass all seven exams to become an engineer in that discipline.
So if you see someone with a CISSP, plus a full MCSE and a CNE, you know they have sat no less than 30 intensive exams over probably no less than four years. The exceptional ones who are also Team leaders or heads of a department also have a degree in either Computing Science or I.T management and at least a decade of real-life experience added to that. I have met a handful who sat them in under two years, but they had already been in I.T working the networks for many years prior.

All of that stated, you could say the same thing about musicians. There are many who are exceptional that have no formal training and cannot read a note of music, Tommy Emmanuel for example, but they are the exceptions to the rule.
The point? - The quality of what comes out at the other end, the production output is what matters most not the pieces of paper associated with the person. The paper is a door opener and not much more really. It says you are supposed to know what you are doing, it does not mean the person is any better than someone else who can make something sound great without any training.
Exceptions to every rule.

 

you have to admit self appointed unaccredited job titles are pretty damn common in music. "thieves and gypsys" doesn't look that great on a business card.

 

an engineer is per definitionem somebody with a formal training, isnt it? the hell would break loose if i call myself a doctor of medicine! but read some webpages about audio, and voila youre an audio engineer. its a pity, that engineer isnt a protected educational degree.

 

I see your point and you are basically right but there are qualified Audio engineers with proper training and degrees out there though.
There are schools of audio engineering everywhere and in Universities.

Theoretically there two examples here that enabled people to do this misconception all society generated:
1. An engineer is a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures, or who can skilfully arrange for (something) to occur. Theoretically it cannot be typecast because they changed the meaning from design and create only to incorporate operating. That was a mistake.
2. A doctor is someone who has a PhD or a Doctorate in their chosen field. Society has grown accustomed to calling physicians and surgeons Doctors. A vast majority of them have nothing more than a Bachelor's degree and are General practitioners. Theoretically, the PhD's who teach them how to become medical practitioners who are surgeons and physicians as well are the only real doctors. A PhD does around 5-10 years more study than most physicians. So in theory, most of the physicians people go to aren't doctors at all, they and society just call themselves that.

 

Last edited: May 19, 2021

Arrogant bastards with their fancy overalls and funny hats.

 

I would distinguish between Engineers and Technicians..

Audio/Sound Technician:
A guy that sets up the Stage, placing mics/speakers, wiring the stuff, and controlling the volumes in the mixer/booth etc.. this also exists in the Studio, and besides the installation, they could also help with the recording itself, do the Mixing/Mastering etc.

Audio Engineer:
A guy that uses Science/Technology to create systems/tools for audio reproduction/recording, audio tools etc,
and it can be Hardware or Software based stuff. For instance Rupert Neve, Harry Nyquist, Ray Dolby etc..


Or I guess also anyone who Programs a software tool/plug for audio manipulation.
However it's not the same a Noob that makes a basic EQ following a tutorial,
(altough programming a simple VST like that is still VERY HARD)..
than a really Experienced guy who makes a new revolutionary tool that pushes the boundaries of Audio Software,
or who makes better more precise/useful tools than those already in existence..

So yeah, there's also a considerable difference between Hardware and Software Audio Engineers.


-But in any case there's surely a big difference between Technician and Engineer.

Anyone could be considered, or called a Technician with just some basic knowledge,
and more/less empirical practice/experience in the field.

But very few could really call themselves Audio Engineers, specially in Hardware,
because this requires massive amounts of Knowledge, resources and a very special focus/mentality/goal.


Ofc you can make a "telephone" with two plastic cups and a string,
or you can make a recording device with just a horn, a needle and a ceramic disc..

But to design and engineer a proper audio tool/device, like a Microphone/Speaker, a Mixer, an EQ, Comp or whatever,
one will need to mix electric/electronic engineering, with audio/acoustics knowledge and so on and so forth..

So yeah, I don't think anyone can easily call themselves Audio Engineer.

Also I wouldn't call your pro Mixing and Mastering guy an Engineer,
but a very Experienced Technician and maybe Producer.

 

Last edited: May 19, 2021

As others have said technically an engineer means having a college title, but in several contexts like audio engineer I think is more of a common sense thing. Technician would be more correct, as @Ŧยχøя said.
In my native language (Spanish) doctor technically means only someone with a PhD (usually after a college title). So you have doctors in physics, maths, medicine, history and so on.
In practice we call health workers with some serious title doctor, although technically there's another word for it ("médico").

Edited: reading other fellows posts a college title would be a bachelor's degree

 

Last edited: May 19, 2021

Well, an Audio-Engineer could be someone with a degree in the Recording Arts, you do know how to do basic maintenance but not necessarily fix a piece of broken gear. Art is the important word here. There are other degrees like Electronic-Engineer and Sound-Technician aka Tape-Op related to the craft but not trained to hear and understand music the same way. That said, it is absolutely possible to acquire this knowledge on the street but it takes a long long time a fair degree of talent and dedication. If you carry a title or not is not as important as the fruits your work earns.

 

Many nice comments above...
because they do show 'how people prefer to use words' (that's good) and not 'what words mean' (that's almost pointless)

Dictionaries don't tell you 'what words mean' (that idea's crazy). Dictionaries tell you 'how words get used' (and that evolves)

For example, "who engineered that coup against the government?"
Today, that's a valid use of the word 'engineering' even if its not the use expected in this thread.
That softer (less technical) use of the word 'engineering' is used to mean 'contriving or originating something'.

Words are only there to help us identify ideas while communicating, and once they've identified the idea,
then they've done their job and don't matter.

e.g., What is an 'audio engineer'? It's an ambiguous question.
When we ask that, all we actually care about is the idea that we're trying to identify...
i.e., are we talking about someone who 'builds audio hardware' or someone that 'builds audio software',
or someone that 'builds audio'? Does it matter if they all use the same label 'audio engineer'?
It's tough luck if we think someone's abusing the language because they will anyway.

If we're talking about someone that is 'constructing audio' (and not someone that's constructing audio hardware/software)
then it's optional whether that someone calls themself an audio engineer or a sound engineer or a producer,
or even a hyper-aural-wizard, (who cares?) You could even say a musician is an audio engineer - they do construct audio!

Obviously, it doesn't help to overload the same words with many meanings, that just adds confusion to conversations
(like I did here!)
but it also doesn't make sense to believe that words have fixed meanings - they never have and never will.
Disciplines like science like to keep the ambiguities to a minimum. Other areas of culture enjoy doing the opposite.

 

yep ...if you not a half doctor in mathematics you will never made it to get a TON-INGENIUER

they are...a tone tech has half of the knowledgy of tone engineer - facts - in germany
a tone engineer has way more knowledge then just mix and mastering way way more

and yes its called
Ingenieur
in germany

and this is not only in audio....a technician has big knowledge already but and Ingenieur has way way more - thats very simple facts in germany and i bet in the east and in france its the same

--
i think its thru english is global language and some sort of plain language in compare to many other languages
it seems a fact that a audio engineer is not to compare to the degree of tone-engineer

and again a tone engineer is able to master much more tasks than mix mastering its an all over audio god
i think ethan winer is one
a god - lol - no a true tone engineer

and again an audio tech is no audio engineer in germany , facts
thats official degrrees in germany and a tech has not as long and deep education as a ingenieur
and this stands for all , for construction ,audio,chemical area and what else not

 

Last edited: May 19, 2021

sound manipulator

 

I'm actually studying electrical and audio engineering in austria Graz (it's called Elektrotechnik-Toningenieur). As far as I know it's the only place in europe you can get a Bsc or Msc in audio engineering. It's a combined study of the technical and musical university, the technical side is much more prominent though. While you are qualified to work in a studio afterwards you are actually much more likely to end up in software or hardware engineering or doing room acoustics. With that study program you have a unique skillset that basically guarantees you an interesting and well payed job.

 

so after comparing english and german wikipedia entry on that and its the same
i say its just the audacity of the clueless audio community to call everyone who can mix and or master an audio engineer which is a pure joke

 

thanks for clarification and for bring up that you combine the two fields
yep i meant ppl like you which end up with massive knowledge not comparable to a just mix master guys

 

In Germany, the title "engineer" (resp., "Ingenieur") is protected by law: https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/foreign-engineers.html
Usually, you would need at least a bachelor's degree to call yourself an engineer. But it may not be the case in other countries. So I guess it also depends on where you're from.

 

Same here. To call yourself an "engineer", you need to have a career related to engineering of some sort, which is 5+ years college education.

So around here if you know your way around audio but don't have that kind of training you're just a "sound tech".

 

It comes from universities previously having a Department of Mathematics and Computational Science, which is what they were before they split into separate departments due to the rapid expansion of computer technology. The tools of the software engineer are all science based, so basically using computer science to solve problems. In fact, software engineer is just a job title.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_science

 

Last edited: May 19, 2021