Hi,

I just got an email about everything is "too quiet" from someone random that I've recently agreed to collaborate in a project. I never done anything like this before, so for SCIENCE, I thought to give it a try. It's in a 80s dark synth pop or something genre wise, we agreed to see where the tracks will bring us and haven't decided on that part yet.

All the tracks I've made in the project file are beautifully set to a 0db vu level as what I've been doing all my production life and how I gain stage everything before start mixing, because plugins (or outboard gears) love it to be that way. Plus I told him, I will mix the track later. So I do it that way so it won't be a problem in the next stage.

So this asshole (because he calls me noob for that) said that he had a hard time "feeling it" and adding his parts because everything is too quiet and he even complaining about how I didn't process (compress or multiband compress) stuff and he even give me youtube links for "how to use OTT" to me. I already did a little compression ad EQing, but I tried my best just to bring out the body, but preserve the original transient. I also flatten everything so maybe because he didn't see any processing there. It's just some drum, percussion and few basslines. (Ableton)

I've made a decision that I don't want to say anything because I couldn't find my asshole pants today and said sorry and canceled everything because I don't feel like doing it with him no more. One thing I'm not sure is how do you guys normally do it ? or how is this suppose to be done ?

Squash/squeeze everything to death ? or just normalize it so it will be loud enough ? or keep everything steady and pretty at 0db vu like I did ? or just ignore that part, and mix it along the way ?

I do stuff by stage, I don't mix where I create stuff, is this way not acceptable these days for collaboration ?

 

Last edited: Mar 23, 2021

I'd rather get quiet tracks than limited and squashed audio. Put your asshole pants on and say "screw this! If you can't be bothered normalizing them, then obviously even this small amount of work is too much for you and I cannot imagine you're going to put any serious effort into helping me" then fart in the direction of your monitor.

 

I thought so too, apparently it is different out there, I'm clueless now really.

 

Doesn't matter whilst through tracking stage anyway. And in regards the thread title specifically, no; I definitely do not Normalize all audio.
And if you are happy with the mix just raise everything the same relatively, and observe your individual track levels and your main out levels.
I don't know why people think Normalise is a good thing to ever use.
It was a thing on mid to late 90s hardware samplers and it was useful and needed back then.

If YOU are governing the eventual mix of the track, then don't worry; they can remix for their own backing for when they are tracking, and just send you their creative input which you will fit into your mix.
You will probably find their takes too loud! lol.
And I totally agree with Father Lenny!

In the digital domain, "too quiet" does not matter.
That's what Gain plugins were made for, and gain-staging.

No, it's not though. Just your person you are interacting with, imo.
Because it doesn't matter at this stage of creation.

 

Ah. I just thought.
Just whack every instrument/track fader up as much as you can prior to 0 Db on their meters, and also check the main outs aren't clipping or over, before you bounce the tracks and send to collaborator.
You're probably monitoring too loud, however you monitor.
Afaik, Normalise is not the same.
I know what Normalise purportedly does, but how come I can hear it even when it's level matched?

edit: Okay, upon taking in the finer points of your OP, the guy just sounds like a dick, yeah.
Sorry for trying to tell you what you already know regards your art!

 

Last edited: Mar 23, 2021

So, if you ever done something like this (collaborating) and you are the first person to start the song, do you measure everything before sending it to the next person or just send it as is ? do try to make the tracks "listenable" like all the panning, adding reverb and stuff so it is maybe easier for them to work on it ?

Getting response like "I can't feel it bro" is weird because those aren't suppose to enjoyed yet, but I made sure it's workable from that point, as my previous band I also work this way, back in 2006 or something. Although that is just the demo version of the song (we re-recorded the song later), my bandmates didn't say anything about it.

yeah, i think I work with the wrong person as well, glad I already canceled.

 

Last edited: Mar 23, 2021

You're talking about three different things here:

1. treating your instruments
2. export level
3. importing audio files

1. IMHO, EQing and compressing the tracks for sound is the way to go in the composing and arranging stage. You can do this even without any EQing and compressing. Squashing them to death only in the late mixing and mastering stage.
2. The only thing that really matters for export is to avoid clipping, nothing more. The tracks shouldn't be so low that they are drowned in (close to) the noise floor, but I think this goes without saying.
   0VU or not doesn't matter for export.
3. When I get audio files that are veery low in level, Reaper offers me two options:
   A) normalize all to 0dB FS, which I've indeed already done or
   B) a relative normalization, called common gain. Means, all tracks are raised in level by the same amount until one file hits 0dB FS, which is what I'm mostly doing, if I change the levels.

I've never ever even had the idea to complain about too low audio files. IMHO that's just stupid for digital audio. Tape would be a different story.

 

I calibrate my monitors and I monitor at 85db SPL or something, shit I forgot the pressure, it was long time ago, but I know to set my monitor level to -35db (at my interface) as I always do when mixing.

The thing is I wonder, why he didn't just crank up his monitor ? weird right ? but then, maybe his setup or his instrument/synth or something at different level. I don't even know the guy, or what his setup at home/studio, I approached he said yes and we talked and start.

 

Yeah, as is.
And nah, fuck 'em! Let them work it out, if they can play.
Do they want to play on my track or not?
And I would NEVER complain about what I was sent to play on! lol.

 

Yes, you missed my edit a few minutes back. I sussed you know what you are doing.

 

I didn't export, I just send the Ableton project files. Collect and save it, zip it, and Gdrive to him. He also works in Ableton, but I did flatten everything so no processing because I don't know what type of Ableton (Suite or Lite etc) he has. I usually don't touch faders at this stage and everything is at 0db fader just very low RMS. Also I use the default template reverb and delay for the percussion.

So, you're saying I don't really have to measure 0db vu everything because it is still too early in the production ? It's just a habit while tracking, I use real bass for one of the tracks, so everything else followed I guess.

One of the reason I cancelled the project. why don't he just crank up his monitor/interface or something.

Edit : Now that I think of it, the faders position must have something to do with it, because he can't push it up further to get more volume. Only few dbs up from 0 but that now enough volume. He should do it to the clip itself or add a gain plugin for it, but why he.. didn't.. do that as well.

 

Last edited: Mar 23, 2021

I make sure nothing is clipping and that's about it. you tend to end up with a lot of unused stuff, so lots of processing can wait.

 

If the first thing a collaborator fronts on is Volume I'd say, "I'm out…"

BTW, check this out. Apparently, OTT phaseshifts like crazy and can fuck up your whole signal really bad (skip to 10:38):

 

Well I constantly gain-stage too, but the point was that we are well prior to wanting to squash things as was implied.
Because you haven't got to mix stage yet, was my point.
Obviously it's good to be aware of these things during the process too!

 

Ah, I knew there was a reason the Trance heads use it. lol.

 

Yeah, I will not complain about it as well, but I don't know really haha, I imagine if I received squashed files I would be a little pissed I guess. lol

I think the best is to talk and discuss about this prior of sending him the files, because I think everyone has different needs or way they usually work. I just don't know if there is a "standard" way of doing it out there, how people collaborate these days.

 

So, the levels work for you but not for him??? Maybe his Master fader is broken?

TBH, ITB I've never used a VU meter for gainstaiging because it just wasn't necessary.

Spoiler: VU meter drawbacks I came accidentally across

Realtime screenshot, all are fed with the same source




This can happen too

 

the faders in Ableton only give you another 6db of gain. lol. maybe he was pissed because he couldn't get it any louder there thus forgetting they are a lot of other way of doing it (gain plugins, crank up the monitor). The fader levels at 0 has to do something with this, I'm sure of it now.

About the one in the spoiler, I'll check as soon as I wake up tomorrow. Interesting but I'm already tired and can't process complex stuff for now.

 

Yeah, it's important, I've been doing it because from my experience, the track will get louder and louder the further you are in the production stage, and will be hard to mix in the end, so I chose to start early. Well, if that didn't work with everyone else maybe I need to change my way a bit when working with people, because it is so disappointing to have this kind of first experience really.

 

Do you work with a really loud kind of genre ? Is this the way people been sending you their tracks as well ?